Loader on an M ?

Anonymous-0 · Feb 1, 2011

Hello everyone. I have a question on the hydraulic on an M. I am thinking about putting a Westondorf WL21 loader on mine. I have a normal "lift-all" pump (I believe is what it is called) on my M. The pressure from the pump checks out good. How much weight can I expect to lift with this set up and will I need to add capacity to the resorvoir. Them are my 2 biggest concerns. I already have a 2 spool valve on my M so the plumbing should be ok. Unless however I need a bigger resorvoir. Thanks

Allen Goodman · Feb 1, 2011

If the loader is a "trip bucket" you shouldn't have any problems with the belly pump lifting. However if the loader is a hydraulic bucket you'll need a larger resivore and PTO pump and not use the belly pump.

26Red · Feb 1, 2011

You will need a hydraulic PTO pump and hydraulic tank, the M"s belly pump does not have storage capacity.

You may want to look for a older DuAll 250 loader. It has the hydraulic tank built into the loader brackets, control valves and pto pump.

pete 23 · Feb 1, 2011

If you are using double action cylinders with your add on valves you should be ok on the oil capacity. Far as lifting capacity, depends on size of cyl and condition of pump. A worn pump can deliver full pressure when dead headed but may not be able to deliver enough gpm at a good working pressure to do the job.

Anonymous-0 · Feb 1, 2011

The cylinders are all double acting. There are 4 cylinders, 2 on the arms and 2 on the bucket. Considerig everyting is in good shape, what do you expect something like this to lift. I figured if capacty is an issue than I could add an extra tank to it. Lifting power is also a concern. I didnt really want to add a pto pump.

Wardner · Feb 1, 2011

Chances are the cylinders were sized for 2500 lbs hydraulic pressure to match the structural design lifting capacity of the loader. The Liftall can't do much better than 900 lbs. That means your lifting capacity will be reduced by more than 2/3rds. That might be enough for what you are lifting but I doubt it.

Your cure would be another pump with a greater pressure capacity or larger diameter cylinders. Big cylinders will greatly reduce the speed of the loader.

I would go with a larger and newer pump driven off the front of the engine or get another more capable tractor such as an 504-706 or later/bigger.

pete 23 · Feb 1, 2011

It gets complicated trying to figure out these things. Lifting capacity is going to depend on pressure of fluid, size of cyl and leverage at lift points. No way I can figure this for you. New loaders normally give you a lot of these specs with gpm and psi needed for pounds of lift. Can't help you much more than that. Extra capacity tanks don't usually work well on the belly pumps. They shoot oil all over unless you plumb them in such a way to return the oil to bottom of reservoir. I would try it without.

armand tatro · Feb 1, 2011

First of all you do not want a PTO pump on that tractor because when you push in clutch pump will stop same as if you were using the belly pump. You want a crank shaft driven pump. Do you have power sterring on that tractor? I have replace the PS pump with a belt-driven pump from a combine that had a 3/8in. pressure outlet to hook to the PS and a 1/2in. pressure to run the rest of your hyd. system. We have a 1941 M that is set up this way with 2 3spool hyd. valve and sometimes we have all 6 valves in use. I will be happy to answer any questiong. Armand

rustyfarmall · Feb 1, 2011

(quoted from post at 11:46:56 02/01/11) The cylinders are all double acting. There are 4 cylinders, 2 on the arms and 2 on the bucket. Considerig everyting is in good shape, what do you expect something like this to lift. I figured if capacty is an issue than I could add an extra tank to it. Lifting power is also a concern. I didnt really want to add a pto pump.

It will have the ability and capacity to lift considerably more than what would be considered safe for the tractor, but if you've got a heavy duty wide front, and enough ballast on the rear to keep the tires on the ground, then go for it. That M and loader combination will do everything you ask it to and come back beggin' for more.

Nebraska Cowman · Feb 1, 2011

I'm guessing you will be putting maybe half the pressure the loader cylinders were designed for so that is going to cut your lift capacity in half. What's the diameter of the cylinders? If you know how much pressure your pump is putting out it's not hard to calculate pounds of lift.

Anonymous-0 · Feb 1, 2011

Thanks everyone. NE cowman, I understand what you ae getting at. PSI x sqare inches = my answer. I'm not sure what my pressure is. I tested it a couple of months ago and remember it being what the repair manual said it should be, but cant remember what it was exactly. I'm not sure the size of the cylinders either. The loader is not at my place. If I remember right I thought my Dad could use his loader with the lift all pump on his M to raise 1500 lb. round bales, could that be right?

rustyfarmall · Feb 1, 2011

(quoted from post at 14:11:45 02/01/11) Thanks everyone. NE cowman, I understand what you ae getting at. PSI x sqare inches = my answer. I'm not sure what my pressure is. I tested it a couple of months ago and remember it being what the repair manual said it should be, but cant remember what it was exactly. I'm not sure the size of the cylinders either. The loader is not at my place. If I remember right I thought my Dad could use his loader with the lift all pump on his M to raise 1500 lb. round bales, could that be right?

1500# round bales should not be a problem. I've done it with a #31 loader on a Farmall H, just to prove it could be done.

Anonymous-0 · Feb 1, 2011

Thanks Rusty. I didnt think it woud be. I'm not planning on lifting them kind of loads very often, but its nice to know its there if you do need it.

rich4 · Feb 1, 2011

You will get tired of a non live hydraulic pump with a loader if you are filling and dumping a lot. Putting it in neutral lift the loader, Put it in gear and do it over and over again. My dad did work with a 'H' and loader, but couldn't wait until the newer tractors with live hyraulics and PTO started showing up.

Anonymous-0 · Feb 1, 2011

Rich I am sure your right, and maybe some day down the road I can make that upgrade, but for now its like they say "Poor people have poor ways".

sflem849 · Feb 1, 2011

(quoted from post at 17:10:10 02/01/11) Rich I am sure your right, and maybe some day down the road I can make that upgrade, but for now its like they say "Poor people have poor ways".

If it is a worker and not a pet you would be better off to get a 400, 450, or 560. They would be a lot handier.

Anonymous-0 · Feb 1, 2011

No offense to anyone, but if I were to step up to another "handier" tractor it would be an Oliver. Love the M and I think this set up should work fine for what I have in store for it.

sflem849 · Feb 1, 2011

(quoted from post at 18:39:10 02/01/11) No offense to anyone, but if I were to step up to another "handier" tractor it would be an Oliver. Love the M and I think this set up should work fine for what I have in store for it.

Like double number stuff 77 88 etc? Sorry, not in love with them. However, I am color blind. I would by a JD if I could find one that wasn't a million bucks.

mkirsch · Feb 2, 2011

(quoted from post at 18:39:10 02/01/11) No offense to anyone, but if I were to step up to another "handier" tractor it would be an Oliver. Love the M and I think this set up should work fine for what I have in store for it.

What these guys fail to remember sometimes is that you gotta make do with what you can get. You can't sit around waiting for the exact right brand and model of loader to come up for sale locally, in decent shape, at a reasonable price, because it probably won't ever happen.

I would plan on getting an auxiliary reservoir, regardless. With 2-way cylinders you should have enough fluid returning to keep the reservoir full, but an extra 2-3 gallons won't hurt either. 5 gallons would be even better.

IH fan · Feb 2, 2011

(quoted from post at 15:57:46 02/01/11) I'm guessing you will be putting maybe half the pressure the loader cylinders were designed for so that is going to cut your lift capacity in half. What's the diameter of the cylinders? If you know how much pressure your pump is putting out it's not hard to calculate pounds of lift.

This will only give you force of the cylinder, not lift capacity of the loader. As mentioned above, that will depend on the loader design... angles, lengths, etc.
You are certainly not going to be able to use nearly the full capacity of the loader with the Lift-all pump, but it depends on what you expect out of it. I'm thinking you have already found that loader when you asked, but the idea of a loader with built in reservoir, valves and crank driven pump sounds best to me.

BrentinIA · Feb 2, 2011

It will work fine as long as cylinders are double acting. Both sides of cyclinder seals are full of oil so when it leaves one side it goes back to resevoir and other side is filled from the resevoir. You may have to add oil when you first attach it if the cylinders are not full to begin with. I have used Paulson, Dual, and Horn loaders on an H and M and never had an issue.

rustyfarmall · Feb 2, 2011

(quoted from post at 16:45:00 02/02/11) It will work fine as long as cylinders are double acting. Both sides of cyclinder seals are full of oil so when it leaves one side it goes back to resevoir and other side is filled from the resevoir. You may have to add oil when you first attach it if the cylinders are not full to begin with. I have used Paulson, Dual, and Horn loaders on an H and M and never had an issue.

Exactly. Once those two way cylinders are full of oil, the belly pump reservoir will hold all the oil that is needed.

Loader on an M ?

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