engine oil

Hi, I have been told two differing opinions on engine oil for a 1951 Super C. Should I use detergent or non-detergent motor oil. I have been told both by 2 different people. Thanks Mike

Detergent.

I would use nothing but a detergent type oil ya years ago they did not but that was way back in the dark ages and now days yu stand about a 90% chance it has a detergent oil in it right now

I use 30wt engine oil for the engine and you gotta use non detergent for the hydraulics.

Detergent in engine, no question.

CT

You are especially safe if you simply drop the pan first. I do this with every tractor I buy before doing anything else. This is where all the gunk hangs out for years. No sense detergent trying to put in to suspense all that crud when it is so easy to clean it out manually.

good plan.

All the advice is good.

Detergent for sure, but Brian's idea about dropping the pan on a machine of questionable/unkown history to clean it first is a good one. All you'll need is a new pan gasket and to make note, as you take them out, of where the longer and shorter bolts around its circumference go.

Detergent oil will suspend the crud it picks up, so it's a good idea to get rid of any excess crud you can and the pan is the most accessible access to the most likely place for crud to accumulate.

You could also remove the valve cover (a new gasket should be budgeted there, as well) and wipe off anything you can reach handily with a lint-free rag. If it's especially ugly under there, you can brush it down with a parts brush and kerosene/diesel (pan off or drain plug open).

From that point,after things are buttoned back up, run it, but shorten up the first couple of oil-AND-filter change intervals. Change out first at 3-5 hours, and again another ten after that, then go back to the regular interval.

Detergent oil doesn't scrub or break up accretions of crud. It just suspends what it picks up so that it can be carried to the filter.

Good advise as thats what i do with a new to me tractor also dont forget to clean the screen on the oil pump and of course the filter.

Ideally you would use what has been used over the past few years. If history is unknown I would use nondetergent. The chances are too high, that when you dump in detergent, that it will loosen up the sludge that has accumulated for the past however many years, and could cause engine damage. Unless you know what has been run in it, or unless it has had a rebuild and has been cleaned up to perfection, I would use nondetergent.

Two people? My advice would be ignore both of them and do as you please. Any clean oil is better than any dirty oil.

Varying opinions don't change the science of what can happen in an old engine.

If by chance the engine is heavily sludged up inside, the last thing you want to do is put a high-degergent oil in there. Degergents disolve crud, and you don't want years of built-up crud disolving now. You can ruin and engine and I've seen it happen, first-hand, several times.

I've pulled apart old tractors that were only run on non-degergent oil and were still clean inside. That because they were well maintained.

On the other hand, I've seen some with a 1" thick layer of sludge in the oil-pan and under the valve-cover.

Last tractor dealership I worked at, we used a general rule of thumb. Non-detergent in older tractors with unknown history, and high-degergent in all tractors - including olds ones if already clean inside.

For those that say use degergent only - I'd like to hear some explanations about what they think happens when years of crud gets loosened and runs through the engine, oil ports to bearings, etc.

Also note that different degergent oils have different levels of degercency. It's not always easy to know. 30 years ago, Quaker State diesel and tractor oil was known for having low detergency, and Deere "TorqueGuard" extremely high detergency.

With any old tractors with engines that appear to be original - this is what I do. I put degergent oil in, run the tractor and watch closely. If it turns black very fast, I take it out and put in non-detergent.

You can also play around, and mix 1/2 and 1/2, or 1/4 and 3/4, and try to clean an engine slowly. I've got an all original Case VAC (never been rebuilt). It was very dirty inside, and for years I screwed around with mixes of degergent and non-degergent oil. After 20 years, I now use full degergent and it's fine. I only went though the effort because I don't like paying extra for non-degergent oil.

I bought a Farmall H one time and it ran good but they only used non detergent oil in it and I droped the pan and cleaned it and I also cleaned the valve cover and the rockers and then I filled it with ATF and ran it for about 15 min. at a fast idle and then drained it. It came out black and I did it two more times and then put detergent oil in and it ran great and it did not burn oil either.

well i would think that a mechanic would take the best and simplest way out by dropping pan and cleaning pan and bottom end and remove valve cover and clean before screwing around with diff.oils for 20 years. makes no sense to me.i know thats what i would do.

Even if the engine is properly maintained and serviced with non detergent oil, it can still sludge up.

I guess that's up to the individual. For myself? I've got over 100 tractors. It's a rare occasion when I get an old tractor, from the original owner, that is all-original and runs perfect. One of my Case VACs is that way. I got it from a guy that had it since new. It's never been apart. I enjoy that part of it and intend to leave it that was for as long as possible. No desire to pull it part. I can hardly find time to work on the ones that DO need to be pulled apart.

I wll note that after screwing around for years, slowly adding more and more degergent oil to the mix, it developed a good "drip-leak" out the rear main seal. But for a 60 plus year-old tractor, it might have nothing to do with the oil.

Drain the oil and put a bent stiff (#9) wire into the drain hole. scrape it around and across the pan bottom. Pull it out and pour a quart of Diesel or Kero into the oil filler (plug out into a fresh pan)
If solids and crispy flakes come out I would pull the pan and VC to clean the engine internally, then with fresh 15-40 oil and a new filter I would go on with life.
If it cane out with just a little soft deposits I would use 15-40 right away and go on with life. Jim

I did NOT say otherwise. I said SOME stay clean. That does not imply they all do.

Depends on engine design, brand of oil, and how the tractors were used.

Good friend of mine (and his dad) had a Deere tractor dealership at his farm for many years. He farmed into the 90s using several dealership "left-overs." Deere 420, 620, and a 530. All used since new with non-degergent oil. Eventually I had every one of the apart for one reason or another. Every one of them was absolutely clean inside. Just like you'd expect today with a modern engine run on high-degergent oil.

All this proves is - it CAN happen. I never said it ALWAYS happens.

Probably more important is the viscosity. In WI stay away from 15-40. That little gas engine needs 5-30 as the H's rarely move the temp gauge much.

Gordo

ah the oil discussion
Grab a bottle of detergent oil and read the back. The brands I have dealt with at work say on the back (slight paraphrase) "Not for use in engines built after 1955/1960." The years seem to vary a little but they're pretty close. Use that basic information, information from this site, and good specific information from technical oil websites to make your own educated decision. Also remember that the engine was likely overhauled (no guarantees however) at least once in its life if it's more than 40-50 years old and gasoline fueled. With used old machines, you run the risk of catastrophic failure every time you move a moving part regardless of you best intentions and efforts. Generally, oil pan gaskets and valve cover gaskets are cheap and easy to obtain or duplicate for that inspection, so to be sure about internal engine situation, bite the bullet and open 'er up. It likely needs valve lash adjustment anyway

There is some history on oil ratings/development available on the web. If I recall, the current Sx gas and Cx- diesel rating style have been in place since the late sixites. (currently we're at SM [with N supercession on the way] and CI-4) Prior to the current system they used a Mx (ex. MS) for gas and Dx (ex. DS) for Diesel for a few years; it's been a constant evolution. The current system has probably been in place the longest however. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find the link, but it was likely the api.org website.
The oil specification revisions have seemed to make the most changes since the 1990s--and those changes have been more about environmental impact than lubrication improvement. The latest controversy has been the removal of the zinc additive...(IMHO it is a bigger war than detergent vs non-det). That's another discussion

Some suppliers offer cheap oil that really is cheap oil, as its ratings are a few years/letters behind current (not neccessarily an issue for 20+ year old tractors). check the label, YMMV and remember you get what you pay for.

basically, use clean quality oil, keep it clean. change filters regularly. Work the tractor often to keep the condensation out.

good luck whatever you decide

karl f

(quoted from post at 19:17:40 01/15/11) There is some history on oil ratings/development available on the web.

Click to expand...

here are a couple of links that go with what I was posting:

karl f
http://www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/upload/MOTOR_OIL_GUIDE_2010_120210.pdf

http://www.acccc.net/index.php?opti...47:maintenance&Itemid=37&limitstart=2

The detergent oil does not "break up" or loosen old crud the way Tide does in a washing machine. If that were true then any engine run on detergent oil would never develop any sludge and we know that's not true.

What happens is that someone parks an old tractor, truck, car or whatever that is already crudded up and the things sits. Water vapor and acids in the crankcase along with umpteen freeze/thaw hot/cold cylces emulsify the crud and some of just plain dries out.

Next some enthusiast such as one of us re-discovers the lost treasure and the first time it's fired after sitting for 20 years the sudden heating vibration and liquid oil splashing around starts breaking stuff loose like crazy.

Best things as others have said, and I do this on my new finds, is to drop the pan and pull the valve cover. Clean. New oil and filter (nothing fancy the first time or two if it's really unknown) and then go to town, knowing what you have on the inside.

I do the same as Cen Tex Farmer with the addition of: cleaning the oil pick up screen.

Remove the oil filter. I also dump about 3 gallons of diesel fuel in the engine, spin it over with the switch off, I don't want to start it, let it soak for until the next time I have time to mess with it.
As short as a week and as long as several months. Drain it and fill with fresh oil and filter. Oil stays pretty clean for quit awhile.

Diesel will also let you know which gaskets/seals are leaking. I have had them leak when I 1st put it in and quit leaking after a day or so.

In one particularly filthy motor I used oven cleaner and a pressure washer to clean things up. I suspect that this was one of those motors the had never had the oil changed, just added to.

I use 15-40 Delo oil in everything