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My Observation on 6 to 12 Volt Conversions - Rather Long..

F

Farmallhal

Well-known Member
Conversions to 12 volt systems and trouble shooting the problems seem to occupy a very large amount of the recurring problems on these older Farmalls at least on this forum. I have a Farmall H I had to convert to 12 volts as the PO had built up a very high compression engine in it which I believe he intended to use as a "sleeper puller" as it looked totally stock. The only way to start that tractor was a pull start when it was 6 volts. I sought a lot of information both here on the forum and through emails with a few folks and used Bob M's diagrams and some of his advice through emails in my conversion along with information provided by other folks who post on this forum. I have a perfectly working conversion with none of the issues which continue to appear on this forum. I used a Hitachi alternator which would mount up under the hood with no cutting or other significant modifications and it looks truly stock when standing next to it.
My BIL has a Farmall M which has been converted to 12 volts and everyone in the neighborhood at one time or another has played with it to add "their touch" to the point he never knows if it will start or run and has no idea on what to do when it doesn't. One of the folks involved with it at one time or another will tear into it and make a couple of changes and might get it to run for a hour or two and then a whole set of new issues arise.
I have formed the opinion that these 6 volt tractors are best left as 6 volt and keep the system working as it was designed too. I have several 6 volt Farmalls that are as trouble free as they can be. In most cases I've had to fix a problem or defective component along the way but those tractors have a wiring diagram and components which are just like the parts catalog and in the manner they left the factory. My 6 volt tractors start in cold weather just like any 12 volt tractor will. The only limiting factor is my desire to get on one down below zero. At least keeping them stock you have published documentation on how they are wired and suppose to function. These resistors, diodes, switches, lights, one or three wire alternators and all the other stuff which is introduced in these conversions just totally adds far too much confusion in trying to keep them functional. My BIL has used a 6 volt tractor of mine on more then one occassion to get his hay in the barn or keep his fields maintained.
I might be lucky but I have a very good auto electric repair shop in town which is very good on farm tractors. The only generator repair I have had which exceeded $15 to $20 was when I needed a new armeter for my Super C. I keep a good generator and voltage regulator on hand to replace one which might go bad but that is so rare. Sorry for the rant but my 6 volt tractors are a true pleasure to use and repair when necessary, Hal.
 
I think a lot of the confusion that occurs with twelve volt conversions arises because there are so many different ways to do the conversion. If you stay with the six volt system there is only one "correct" way to do it and that is the way it came from the factory.
 
I agree. I converted my H several years ago on advice from several "experts." I had to tinker with it off and on for a number of years. Finally, I tore off all the old wires and started from scratch. I put on a key switch and solenoid so my daughter or her friends wouldn't crank it by accident. Since I did it up correctly, I have a very reliable machine. Looking back, what I really needed was new battery cables, I didn't realize they were corroded inside the insulation. If I had it to do again, I would just do new wires and keep it stock. The only real advantage I have is that I can use a 12 volt winch with this tractor.
 

Totally agree. The H that my dad had was used for loading silage in the winter. It was the only tractor we had for quite awhile that had a loader on it, so it HAD to go, no matter what, and it always did. I can remember many times when it was so cold that just letting the clutch pedal up with the trans in neutral would kill the engine, so you let it up very slowly, and then waited a few minutes before trying to move the tractor, and yes, it was 6 volt all the way.
 
Ed, you have brought up a good point on using 12 volt items with your tractor. I believe some people need it for that reason but I have some modern 12 volt tractors that I use when using my 12 volt sprayer.
I recently purchased a top notch restored Farmall H with a 9 speed Heisler and the person I purchased it from was very afraid it wouldn't start when he delivered it to the farm. It was 6 volts and it did start (just barely) for him but it wouldn't for me in a couple of days. When it was restored he just got some standard battery cables for the tractor. Obviously not big enough. I had some made up with 00 cable and routed the ground to a starter mounting bolt along with a couple other things and the same battery spins the starter like a 12 volt. I called him on the cell phone and let him hear it start and he just couldn't believe it would spin like it did and wished someone had told him earlier about cable size and it's importance. Thanks for the response, Hal.
 
Hal, great post. I currently own four Farmalls. An H, another H, a M, and a C. Only one of those is 12v, and that's one of the H's and the conversion was not done by me, however this tractor ALWAYS fires right up, regardless of the outside temperature. My other H that is 6v, starts [b:3e49a121da]most [/b:3e49a121da]of the time. My C that is 6v will start every time, my M that is 6v will start any time that it is above 30 degrees outside. For whatever reason, no matter what I do, it just WILL NOT start when the temperature is in the single digits outside. It has a brand new 6v battery, new 0 gauge cables, a new starter button, and shiny freshly cleaned ground points. Like I said, in the summer, or when it's warmer, it wings over just fine, but in the winter, it fails me 9 times out of 10. That is the only reason I'm considering converting to 12v with it. I plan to use Bob M's wiring diagram with a Delco 10SI.
 
That is very true and I believe that is the problem my BIL has with his M most likely. I won't touch it because it is probably a little bit of all of those various possible ways to convert to 12 volt, Hal.
 
farmallhal...I tend to agree with your thoughts and comments...however....

I realize that this is the RED board and my comments are applicable to Ford, but are offed as food for thought and discussion.

My '63 FORD 4000...a gasser...was originally a 6 volt tractor. I bought it 2nd or 3rd hand many years ago and it was a 12 volt tractor. At the time of purchase, I did not know it had been a 6 volt unit.

I was talking with an acquaintance of mine one day about the tractor and he said that he had owned the tractor at one time and had converted it by using a 12volt GENERATOR and 12volt STARTER off the same model DIESEL tractor. In the ensuing years (probably 23-25 years) I've had to replace starter and...I think, also...the generator. No problem....look up 63 Ford 4000 DIESEL for those part numbers.

QUESTION: Could something like this work for the IH/Farmalls as well??

I've learned a lot on this board...have a 46 Farmall A that will get "restored" someday now that I'm retired!!

Rick
 
When I was a kid back in the early 1950's Saturday was always feed grinding day as I wasn't in school that day. In the winter we had some very cold weather in those days and zero and below was very common. The old 6 volt Farmall would always start but we would have to pull start the pick-up to haul grain from the storage buildings to the grinder room with it. In those days we had a single tractor and unable to use anything else to haul grain as the tractor was on the belt, Hal.
 
Snoop, I think I've read here on the forum that some people have converted M's and Super MTA's using a 12 volt generator from a MD or SMTAD which are the diesel versions of those same tractors. It would still be a generator system but most likely wouldn't require the introduction of other components like an alternator conversion does. There just seems to be a large group of folks on the forum that think a generator is like a model T item and that alternators are totaly trouble free and used on moon rockets. Just my observation, but it appears that those 12 volt converted tractors have more then their fair share of issues due to the amount of discussion they generate. With a correct and proper 6 volt system I haven't found the generators being an issue anymore then an alternator. We have a 1952 Ford 8N here on the farm dad bought new that has never had a generator system failure yet except for battery replacement. I am certainly not an expert on this electrical stuff but maybe someone will chime in with more details. I think the big problem comes in a 6 to 12 volt conversion with the introduction of the additional items needed so it will work on a 6 volt tractor. I don't know what else would be required when going to 12 volts with a MD or SMTAD generator. Good question and maybe one of the experts will share their knowledge on your question, Hal.
 
Again I'm not an expert on this but have just observed the trend from being on this forum since 2002. One thing I would be cautious about is a one-wire versus three wire 12 volt conversion. I believe the 10SI was made as a three wire alternator and if that is the case I would strive to keep it that way and do what you have too so it works as a three wire. Doing the conversion to one wire which maybe only a fraction of folks know about might be the root cause for a lot of the issues since they are doing something that the alternator wasn't really designed and intended for. Being a "turn-key" type guy with my tractors is why I don't like having to tinker daily to get one started, Hal.
 
(quoted from post at 12:08:27 12/17/10) Hal, great post. I currently own four Farmalls. An H, another H, a M, and a C. Only one of those is 12v, and that's one of the H's and the conversion was not done by me, however this tractor ALWAYS fires right up, regardless of the outside temperature. My other H that is 6v, starts [b:5776e40f29]most [/b:5776e40f29]of the time. My C that is 6v will start every time, my M that is 6v will start any time that it is above 30 degrees outside. For whatever reason, no matter what I do, it just WILL NOT start when the temperature is in the single digits outside. It has a brand new 6v battery, new 0 gauge cables, a new starter button, and shiny freshly cleaned ground points. Like I said, in the summer, or when it's warmer, it wings over just fine, but in the winter, it fails me 9 times out of 10. That is the only reason I'm considering converting to 12v with it. I plan to use Bob M's wiring diagram with a Delco 10SI.
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Faster, if the starter stalls out, making you think the battery is too weak, try letting off of the starter button, and then push it down again, let it up and push it down again. So long as the engine turns, even a little each time you depress the starter button, and provided the engine is in good shape, that tractor WILL start.
 
Alan, I totaly agree having a correctly installed system is key. I think most of the issues on the forum we continue to see is from trying to utilize some component which should have been replaced but wasn't due to the economics at the time. A new wire bundle with good wire and insulation is always needed on these tractors. My 12 volt system I installed on my Farmall H I believe is totaly correct and functional in every way. But it certainly wasn't a $50 conversion along with a new battery. I probably have around a couple hundred in mine and I already had a new wire harness on the tractor, Hal.
 
A few years back I was asked to give a Seminar at The Gathering of the Green Conference in Moline Illinois which I researched and presented on 6 to 12 Volt Conversions. It was well attended and we had some fun with it even though the Correct Police staged a protest lol

I obviously cant give the 2 hour presentation here, but in a nutshell I offered a suggestion that on the smaller easier to crank tractors if a person used the biggest heaviest highest rated battery that fits in the box and 00 Gauge Battery n Starter n Ground cables with a good well tuned engine (and all godd electrical components) they ought to start and perform just fine in cold weather.

HOWEVER on the bigger harder to crank tractors I cut them more slack.

All one basically has to do on coil ignition systems, if he wants to retain the old coil, is to add a series voltage dropping (12 to 6)external Ballast Resistor,,,,,,,,change light bulbs,,,,,,,Replace (with a 12 volt) or modify the 6 volt genny to charge the 12 volt battery,,,,,,,,deal with polarity issues in cases if an alternator is used.

Finally my advice was its a mans own tractor and his own choice if he wants to convert or not and I was and remain willing to offer advice regardless.

God Bless n Merry Christmas

John T
 
I don't care one way or another what somebody else does to their tractor, but . . .

What your brother-in-law, et. al. did to a tractor has nothing to do with general reality.

You state . .
"I have formed the opinion that these 6 volt tractors are best left as 6 volt and keep the system working as it was designed too."

With that reasoning, you are also saying that old tractors cannot be upgraded sucessfully? If that IS your opinion, I see it as a result of faulty reasoning.

12 volt "alterators" are far more effcient then brush-driven "generators." Much more efficient and durable. Much more power per rev, weight, etc. A brush-driven generator basically wastes half the power it makes due to the lack of recifiers and using brushes to carry all the charge current. In addition, modern 12 volt components are cheaper to buy and repair.

Like I said, I don't care one way or the other. But, facts are facts. Alternators with internal fully-electronic regulators are a huge advancement from brushed-generators . . period.
12 volt igntion systems provide more potential spark energy then 6 volt systems or magnetos.

The wiring is so simple on these older tractors, the only people having trouble installing/retrofitting 12 volt alternator and ignition systems - are those that lack knowledge and expertise. That's not meant as an insult, just a matter of fact. Different people have different skills.

What is it that you think makes a old tractor better with 6 volts only, yet modern cars, trucks and tractors use 12 volts?

The reality is, components for old 6 volt systems have gotten very expensive, unless you buy aftermarket or used parts - many of which are nowhere near the quality of the originals. Go price an OEM Delco regulator and it's apt to cost near $100.

Anything can be a pleasure to work on if you know how to do it and good parts can be bought at at a reasonable price. I find working on old equipment much more frustrating, mainly because of the poor qualily of many of the newer replacement parts.
 
Hal -

I gotta agree with you - properly maintained a stock 6 volt systems work fine and are reliable.

My first ever 12 volt alternator conversion was to my FIL's Super M about 35 years ago. The tractor was used primarily for operating a mounted picker - usually in the dark. Having enough amps to run several auxiliary work lights were the primary concern. Further, the tractor been "hot rodded" with (high compression head, M&W pistons, etc). So even with the stock 6 volt system in perfect shape, it cranked slow and was sometimes difficult to start - especially when the engine was hot. Pulling or jumping the outfit in the middle of a cornfield was pretty much out of the question. So a 12 volt alternator conversion made good sense for this tractor.

My FIL gave me the tractor when he quit farming. I left the alternator in place since I now use the tractor to skid firewood, push snow and pull hayrides at a friend's Christmas tree farm. Reliable starting in winter weather is reason why.

But I also own two other tractors - a Super H and a Minnie-Mo U. I've left both stock 6 volt because I they serve me well and I just like 'em that way. Besides....to me there's just something "right" about the slow roll then engine catching of a well-tuned 6 volt tractor.

----

Bottom line: Unless there's a compelling operating reason to convert to 12 volts, my vote is to retain the stock 6 volt systems whenever possible!

...Bob M
 
I agree with you Hal. I had to stop and make sure that it wasn't Hugh MacKay writing the post. Right up to his last day with us he was a firm believer in keeping it 6 volts. I have a good battery and good cables on my C and it spins over like a top. I do not need to start them much in the winter but I may give all of the old girls a little run time this weekend. They were designed to start on 6 volts and if properly maintained they will perform as designed.
 
I have a good battery and good cables on my C and it spins over like a top.
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I think some of you are forgetting how hard a bigger tractor is to start in the winter. My C will wing over real quick in the cold, but my M won't even make a full revolution if it's in the single digits outside.
 
YES, a Generator repair shop can easily modify an old 6 volt genny to 12 volts, typically they change out the Field coils.

NOTE I have even used an old 6 volt genny unmodified and made it charge a 12 volt simply by changing to a 12 volt Voltage Regulator. BEFORE ANYONE HAS A CALF IM NOT SAYING THATS ENGINEERING CORRECT OR PERFECT (always a chance you may over current the fields ratings) ONLYYYYYYYY THAT IT WORKED. A genny puts out more if you spin it faster or pump more current through its field windings.


Merry Christmas

John T
 
EXACTLY a bigger tractor like an M requires more energy to crank over then a smaller tractor which is why Id cut a guy more slack for converting an M then a smaller tractor. Still his tractor his choice ..............but with a big heavy duty battery and 00 gauge cables and a well tuned engine they ought to start at 6 volts provided everything is in good shape that is ??????

John T
 
If it was originally Positive ground and you elect to stay with a generator when converting to 12 volts, theres no reason you cant stay at Pos ground as it eliminates any wiring changes to the ammeter or coil HOWEVER if you go the alternator route, most of them unelss made special require negative ground....

John T
 
If anyone thinks that 6 volts is best or wants to keep tractor original then 6 volts is right for them. Ther are lots of advantages to 12 volt altenator other than starting though. Altenator will charge 60 amps or better vs 10/12 for 6 volt generator...On todays tractors generator will last a long time but on high hour tractors generator/altenators give lots of trouble... Can use ordinary Auto Zone type battery cables...Much safer to jump start with modern vrhicle...Can use any battery charger many newer chargers do not have 6 volt setting...Lights will be brighter...Can use 12 volt pump for spraying...12 volt batteys are plentyfull 6 volts are becoming speciality item...If you have working tractor can mount radio...To name a few.
 
(quoted from post at 18:42:44 12/17/10) If anyone thinks that 6 volts is best or wants to keep tractor original then 6 volts is right for them. Ther are lots of advantages to 12 volt altenator other than starting though. Altenator will charge 60 amps or better vs 10/12 for 6 volt generator...On todays tractors generator will last a long time but on high hour tractors generator/altenators give lots of trouble... Can use ordinary Auto Zone type battery cables...Much safer to jump start with modern vrhicle...Can use any battery charger many newer chargers do not have 6 volt setting...Lights will be brighter...Can use 12 volt pump for spraying...12 volt batteys are plentyfull 6 volts are becoming speciality item...If you have working tractor can mount radio...To name a few.
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Another one of the reasons I want 12v on my M. I could care less about it being original. It's a work horse, not a historical piece. I wouldn't mind putting backlit gauges on it either for night use.
 
In simplistic description, because a generator first makes alernating current, and due to brush placement, selects only portions of the current to produce an output of direct current.

On the other hand, an alternator uses just about all the power made, and with the use of rectifiers,converts it from alternating current into direct-current.

Thus the main reason why an alternator that is smaller and lighter then a generator, can make 30-50 amps at engine ilde speeds and 60-120 amps at max output. Whereas a typical generator can barely make 5 amps at idle and 15-30 amps at amps at max output.

Name a tractor brushed-generator that can even make a 1/2 the power of a small alternator.
 
So, it seems you are saying that if something performs AS designed (regardless when it was designed), it's as good as it gets. I.e., it's all relative. When a 1936 tractor left the showroom floor, it cranked just as well at 0 degrees F as a 12 volt tractor does built in 1970.

If you truly believe that, then it's clear you never measured cranking speed revolutions on a cold tractor with either system. Many old tractors with good working 6 volt systems barely crank 75-150 RPM at 0 degees F. 12 volt systems typically crank 200-400 RPM. That can make a big difference with starting.

Using your reasoning, it has me wondering why on earth the 12 volt system became the norm in modern engineering?
 
I'm sorry if you think the observations I have made have been interpretated as a statement that people can't do with their tractors what they want or feel they need to do. As noted by the title of this thread it is just a summary of my observations of the issues that have occurred through these 12 volt conversions. The conversion I made on my Farmall H which was not capable of being started on a 6 volt system has been trouble free. My conversion was made with a lot of research and direct communication with several people who have been involved in electrical systems for several years and totally understand what is required. It is just my belief for some reasons when you revise a proven design with something incorporating modern technology and the economic factor comes in to play where short cuts are taken these recurring issues arise. Sure 12 volt systems are an improvement over the earlier 6 volt system but in no way are necessary for all tractors. Using the same improvements over time how many trouble free turbine engines have you seen incorporated into these old tractors, or maybe solar power units in place of the 248 cu. inch engine on a M. My point which you must have missed is that we have constant threads about 6 to 12 volt conversions on this forum and a lot of newer people to this Farmall forum are probably feeling unless they convert their Cub to a 12 volt one-wire alternator system they really aren't part of the club. There are very valid reasons for an upgrade to 12 volt for operational purposes and other conditions, however, it is certainly not necessary for all tractors just because it might be an overkill for an earlier simpler design and is more efficent in a manner where that improvement is of no benefit.
I can see this thread generated a lot of good discussion and that is what it was intended to do. I just hope some of the younger and newer members of our community really access the need before jumping into something which is made out to be so simple by some very talented individuals when in reality a lot of system design effort is really required to install a really functional 12 volt system using components from both a 6 and 12 volt system. I read one response where someone thought Hugh McKay was alive and well again. I don't have the indepth knowledge of these old tractors that he shared as I was just a tractor jockey kid in the hay day of the letter series Farmalls and just couldn't wait until the next day to get back on one, Hal.
P.S. The last American made OEM 6 volt voltage regulator I bought was $46.19 for my Super C when I restored it. The 12 volt rebuilt alternator I purchased for my Farmall H when I converted to 12 volt was $59.95.
 
Instead of just making a new thread, I'll just ask in this thread. What do you guys think of this 12v conversion kit? 149 shipped. Comes with alt, bracket, wiring, resistor, and instructions??

http://cgi.ebay.com/FARMALL-H-M-TRACTOR-NEW-12V-ALTERNATOR-CONVERSION-KIT-/200472194592?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2ead12ee20
 
This is actually a good thread. Lot's of fairly polite banter.

So. I prefer magneto's, AND my best starting tractor at any temp is my F-20 with a F-4 mag. I have yet to have ANY of my mag tractors not start within 1-2 cranks (warm weather) and 3-4 cranks (cold weather) ......if I didn't forget to turn the fuel on LOL.

I am neutral on 6v or 12v, although I personally prefer keeping the 6v system, as my tractor's are not daily work horses, but rather show and occasional work. I have NOTHING against a 12v conversion.

With all that said, I challenge everyone to explain to me, that if your ignition is well tuned, why you have to spin an F series or Letter series tractor fast? All my tractors start at low temps at hand cranking speed because I keep the ignition and fuel systems maintained. The key is properly working fuel system (carb clean and set correctly), and an ignition system in good working order. In fact, in really cold weather, I better results hand crank starting on my battery ignition tractors. Granted, I usually don't generally use the SM, so my C-113 or F20 is not that bad to crank.

all my comments do NOT apply to diesel engines.........................
 
I don't want to be taken wrong either. I have many old tractors and crawlers with their original 6 volt systems. With any so-called "advance" in technology, there is a "loss" to go along with it. I like old tractors and don't need them all to act like newer ones.

My point is . . . there are many gains to be had with 12 volt systems and 12 volt ignition systems - on tractors of any era or age.

Whether somebody needs or wants those gains, is a totally different issue. My point was, and is - just as I've stated. Modern 12 volt equipment can be easily, reliably, and cheaply retrofitted to older tractors and cars. Just because a few jerks cannot do it correctly, doen't mean others can't.

Even just 30 years ago, there were two starter and generator shops in my area, on carburetor shop, a crankshaft shop, and a magneto shop. The mag shop also reubuilt poured babbit rods, rebuild pistons, etc. If you had an older 6 volt system, generator, magneto, starter, etc. you get what ever you wanted, locally. Not any more. At present, quality parts for the old stuff are very expensive - as compared to what you get with modern equipment.

It's easy to find a good working Delco 10SI or 12SI alternator for $25 or less. How easy can you find a 1940s-1950s generator and regulator - when you need it - for $25? I can buy a new Delco internal regulator for $12 and it's apt to last forever if not abused. Show me a mechanical regulator for $12 that's worth even installing. It's difficult to find one worth using even at three times that price.

Tractors with 6 volt systems, working exactly as designed, do not crank near as well as most 12 volt systems in extreme cold. Tractors with 6 or 12 volt generators don't charge near as well as any tractor with an rectified-alternator. If you want a machine that starts reliably in extreme cold, and can run several bright lights at moderate to low engine speeds, using a 12 system with an alternator offers a huge advantage.

At present, I have two original 6 volt machines that I use once in awhile in extreme cold. A Case VAC for moving large round hay bales, and an Oliver HG bulldozer for clearing snow paths in my fields. When it's zero F out or colder, it's a total crap shoot if either will start and both crank around 100 RPM. That is the way they were designed new. But, I usually unhook the 6 volt charging system and stick 12 volt batteries in them for winter starting. They then start great. I keep them charged with a battery mainainter. When winter is over, I stick the 6 volt batteries back in and hook up the charging systems again. I've been doing that for 30 years. It would make more sense to just convert them to 12 volt and alternators, but I like them as they are and get by fine.
 
I agree, this is indeed a good thread in which I as a sparky have participated in and enjoyed.

I'm with you in that if the tractor especially ignition and carb are correct she can start fine even at 6 volts even at slow and/or hand cranking speeds. Similar to what you report, when hand starting my mag equipped JD B its starts as well or maybe better when cold then warm wooooooooooo hoooooooooooooo lol.

HOWEVER you/we have an advanatge (in cold temps) using a Mag versus a 6 volt coil ignition system because the mag creates its own energy versus if its a battery powered 6 volt system with an elec start where cold cranking reallyyyyyyyyyyy drops battery voltage drastically to such a point theres a weak spark !!!!!!! On that mag theres no such problem. IE with a mag the temperature isnt such a factor as it is with a 6 volt electric start battery powered coil ignition system where cranking lowers battery voltage and reduces spark energy

Next you ask:

"With all that said, I challenge everyone to explain to me, that if your ignition is well tuned, why you have to spin an F series or Letter series tractor fast?"

Im NOT saying you have to spin it fast, YOU INDEED DO NOT, my B hand crank starts at extremeeeeeeee slowwwwwwwwww cranking, I barely pull the flywheel over and she fires right off. But that being said, the answer (in theory at least) to your question isnt rocket science and is simple.........If shes cranking faster theres less time for compression PSI to leak off so when the spark does occur at TDC its at a higher PSI compression. SURE it dont take high PSI to start it, the JD even uses compression release petcocks for hand starting, IM JUST POINTING OUT TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION A REASON WHY THE FASTER SHE CRANKS THE HIGHER THE PSI IN THE CYLINDER WHEN SHE FIRES.... But NO she dont "have to" crank fast to start well as we both report ESPECIALLY with a Magneto, Im just saying if she spinds faster theres probably more compression left over (less time to leak off) when the spark finally happens...........

God Bless, GREAT DISCUSSION YALL

John T
 
No argument from me. A self-contained magneto with a working spring-loaded impulse does not rely on good cranking speed to make good spark. A tractor with a battery ignition does, and a 6 volt system is apt to have worse spark when cold-cranking, then a properly designed 12 volt system. In fact, even some new cars with "high tech" electronic, high-energy igntions will not fire at all when cranking voltage drops below 9 volts.

One drawback to self-contained magnetos is that most are limited to 15,000-20,000 volts of max spark energy. Some older machines at times need more, and some do not. A good 12 volt battery igniton typically can make 30,000 - 40,000 volts.
Your statements rely on tractors being in "perfect" tune. I suspect many are not, though. Having extra spark energy with fouled spark plugs can often make the difference of a running tractor - versus a non-running tractor.

And with generators versus rectified alternators? There is no comparison when it comes to output and efficiency. An alternator is far superior. All depends if somebody actually needs it or not. I'm sure many old tractors don't.
 
I think that you're right about a lot of 12V conversions being less than well researched or understood causing problems.

My H is still on 6V and the biggest beef I have is with the voltage regulators. Unless they are US made, they are not worth bringing home.

Since it usually turns cold after we get snow I added a second 6V battery (from the SC) to the H. It spins like summer and it keeps the SC battery charged up. It does take a little more choke to get it to go.

Good discussion

Greg
 
For sure, a little C will crank n start fine at 6 volts, BUT ITS NOT NEAR AS HARD TO CRANK AS AN M REMEMBER. Im NOT a fan of 6/12 conversions in general (esp on small tractroas where its just not needed) and preach to use a big heavy battery and 00 Gauge cables which improves cold temp cranking. HOWEVER if a guy has an M that he relies on which needs to start at sub zero temps THEN A CONVERSION CAN INDEED MAKE IT CRANK N START BETTER AR COLD TEMPS.

Its fine for people to have "opinions" and can do what they like to their tractor, but it remains a "fact" they crank better if converted to 12 volts, and while thats not needed so bad on small tractors, ITS SURE IS ON AN M WHEN ITS ZERO OUTSIDE LOL

PS this is NOT to disrespect Mr McKay or you or anyone or their opinions or preferences ITS JUST SOME ENGINEERING FACTS

Fun discussion, God Bless yall

Merry Christmas

John T
 
Big smile John. That was really my whole point. cold weather = more wattage to crank it with the starter. More wattage going to the starter means less voltage to the coil. However, since you can start these old girls by hand, that leads to the conclusion that keeping appropriate voltage to the coil in a battery ignition is key, whether it is 80 degrees outside, or 10 degrees.

I guess I didn't come right out and state that, but it was what was going through my mind. I guess I was trying to get people to think a bit about what goes on when you start an engine. all you really need is correct rotation and good fuel and good spark.......RPM's are inconseqential to what it takes to start one of these. If these were gas turbines, I would have a different answer.

Lastly, I agree about the compression bleed off, but to my point, maintaining compression is important to overall efficiency and power output of a running engine......not as much of a requirement to get 'em spinnin' on thier own. You and I understand (and a few others), and was hoping for those who don't understand to take these points into consideration.

God bless and happy holidays also to all.
 
I certainly appreciate your views and know with the correct guidence and tools to work with a 12 volt conversion can be accomplished which is very useful for a lot of folks. What I have been seeing is that a lot of new comers to this tractor collecting think that unless they install a 12 volt system on their tractor that are still in the dark ages. There are several folks like Bob M and John T along with several more who truly understand the electrical principals that need to be incorporated into a system when converting. It just sort of bothers me when I see a newcomer to the forum with their first tractor like a Cub, Super A, C, etc. with those 113 or 123 engines that feel they have to convert to 12 volts because it is talked about so frequently on this forum. It was just a cold and icy day here in Missouri yesterday and I was in my PC room enjoying the warm furnace heat with not too much to do and having formed an opinion over time due the number of posts concerning problems with the 6 to 12 volt conversion. I knew it would be controversial but I just wanted some of these new folks to know that 12 volt conversions aren't in the mainstream of what you have to do to be accepted in our group. I truly like original appearing tractors (maybe because it takes more effort to keep them that way) and those old IHC original coils look so different then the modern ones they certainly stand out. I have a considerable stock of 6 volt components I have picked up in various places over the past several years (mostly working used or NOS stuff from dealer closeout auctions) that I probably will never have to buy anything except batteries to keep my 6 volt Farmalls running for the rest of my lifetime. Thanks again for sharing your views and trust you have conversions which are trouble free, Hal.
 
SMILIN RIGHT BACK TOM,,,,,,,, Yep the cold weather starting difficulties are moreeeeeeee a question of SPARK ENERGY THEN CRANKING RPM I DEFINITELY AGREEE......Its not the slow crank RPM, its that wimpy spark....

With a battery powered coil ignition, especially a 6 volt system on big hard to crank tractors, its NOT so much the slow cranking that hurts you as the WEAK SPARK due to drastic battery voltage drop...... They DO NOT HAVE TO CRANK REAL FAST (as you well point out) but they DO NEED A GOOD SPARK. Thats where the mag shines as the lowered battery (if the tractor even has one) voltage dont matter wooooooo hoooooo

Im almost tempted to go out n hand start my mag equipped JD B, it usually starts the first or second flywheel pull over

Gee this is fun

John T
 
I go through similar stuff all the time. I've got a 1918 Ford Model T car I'm working on right now. I've got several people (other collectors) buggging me, telling me how I HAVE to install many add-ons to make it worth driving. Rocky Mountain brakes, a Ruckstel two-speed rear-end, high-compression head, 12 volt charging system, etc.

I don't want to do any of that. I want to drive the Model T just like it was when first built. If I wanted something more modern, I've drive something more modern.

With tractors, it's sometimes a bit different. Many of my old tractors are "users", not show-pieces. So for them, I don't mind a few upgrades.
 
Tom, this bring up a story worth sharing on this forum. A few decades ago a propane truck slid off a snow and icy county road late one night making deliveries to folks who had run out of fuel during the storm. He slid off near a neighbor's house who happens to have a IHC 15-30 which was used on a saw mill and was in my family when new. He walked up to the farm house and asked if they had a tractor that could get him back on the road. After getting his coat and other stuff to get out in the weather the neighbor (now deceased) went out to his 15-30 tractor and threw the canvas cover off of it. It was a hand crank tractor and when he saw it he remarked to the neighbor's son that I guess I might as well go try someone else. James said just wait a minute, he cranked it over a couple of times with the switch off before turning it on and the tractor fired right up. It was a big old steel wheel thing with lugs and of course it had all the power and traction needed to get that propane truck back on the road. That old mag tractor came through when there were lots of newer stuff all around the area. The tractor still powers a saw mill when someone local needs some lumber cut for a building, Hal.
 
Well Tom and John, that begs another question.

If I have a charger on the battery to charge it prior to starting and typically the charger doesn't help that much with turning over the engine, would it be better to clip the charger leads directly to the coil to give it some unfettered voltage? Then start cranking.

Just wondering.
 
It's a tough decision to make. Well researched and installed neatly I have no problem with. Cobbling is the problem. I have seen Hs with the hood cut out and it makes me sick. And then you have to choke it to kill it?? WTF?--puts the guy's bragging in perspective :)

Tractor size, My tipping point is the H. In the case of ultra high compression 12v is ideal. Maybe for convienience sake i'd be ok with a C or Cub at 12v, but it should be done neatly and function properly.

It's best to rewire the tractor during a conversion. By the time you try to modify the original harness, you have a cobbling no matter how good you are (some letter series might be an exception due to their simplicity and where the wires terminate). Furthermore, A good looking original-appearing harness might be old and brittle and turn into garbage when you start fiddling with it anyhow (personal experience with that!). Plus you should be using a bigger wire from the higher amp alternator anyway.

The emotional aspect is huge. On one side is the modification side and on the other is the purist. Part of me wants to say that when you are talking H, M, Cub, 140 you are talking about the most common, popular tractors ever, so there is room for creativity. The other part says with that attitude, they'll all be gone and no one will know what an original ever looked like. Of course without creativity and modifications, these wonderful machines from the past turn into antiquated junk that is difficult to use from today's perspective.

karl f
 
That questions not as easy as some may think.

Sure, an external DC voltage appled right to the coils high input (NOT to distributor) terminal is the same as HOT WIRING thereby by passing any potential switch problems orrrrrrrr any battery voltage drop problems and thus, would provide a good hot spark.......

BUTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT I'm just reluctant to advise anyone to apply raw battery charger power direct to the coil AS ITS VOLTAGE CAN BE HIGHER THEN THE BATTERY AND ITS DIRTY SPIKEY AND PULSATING, unlike what it is once filtered n buffered by a big honkin and stabilizing battery.

HOWEVER if you apply it ONLY WHILE the ingition is turned on, its then coupled to the battery via the Ign switch, which provides more protection (thats sorta like just having it on the battery then) then if you hang it on the coil to hot wire it when the Ign is off. I.E. if you put the charger on the coil as long as the ign switch is ON thats not so bad I JUST DONT LIKE TO HOT WIRE THE COIL DIRECT USING A DIRTY RAW POWER HIGH VOLTAGE CHARGER unless the ign is on, while I realize thats basically same as hooking charger to battery.

BOTTOM LINE: Sure it will likely work and not hurt anything, I (although I have prob done plenty things like that before lol) on the record here am NOT gonan tell you to do it unless the IGN is on. Of course if its not the engine would die if you removed the charger from the coil.

John T
 
bc you have a 2606, right? haven't you posted about having a messed up electrical system? I would definitely try to make that right!

if your tractor is the same as a 656 in factory form (my reference is a 72 model), there is supposed to be a resistive wire coming from the ignition switch to the R terminal of the starter. from the R terminal, a regular wire goes to the coil. When the key is on, the resisive wire feeds the coil at reduced voltage, and the R terminal is electrically dead to/from the starter assembly and serves only as a junction block. When the starter button is depressed, the R terminal is energised with the starter, and the coil gets fed a full 12 volts as best as the electrical system can supply with the starter load. Even if the resistive wire was eliminated and a regular coil used, the R terminal still helps with starting because the distance the current must travel to the coil is halved and the loads shared with the ignition circuit are eliminated.

So maybe the charger would help your ignition circuit when starting but those are awful big clamps that could be accident/spark prone with the smaller wires you'd be trying to connect to. My vote is fix the electrical system :)
and over-duty the lighting system with redundant grounds and relays for anything more than 2 35watt headlights and a red tail light.

karl f
 
I have read enough posts on the differences on alternators and generators that are not exactly the way it is.

alternators do have brushes also. The rotor(rotating element)is the field winding. It is fed by a dc current from the built in regulator(most but not all) through brushes passing current to the rotor Field winding). The current is produced in the stator, the stationary part of the alternator. As the current is generated in an alternating current , it has to be rectified with diodes before it enters the direct current battery system.

One advantage of the alternator is that the larger current flow the current out does not flow through brushes reducing maintenance.

Another advantage is that the field is all winding and no magnets. This enables full excitation at low rpms.

Another advantage is that the rotor is much less mass and the rotor stresses at high rpms is less than that of a generator. This means that the pulley used on a alternator can be sized for higher rpm at idle and all the way to max rpm of the engine. This increases the power available at all engine rpm.

The major disadvantage of the alternator is the diodes and the voltage regulator are built in. Very few people can take an alternator apart and replace the diodes or brushes and or the voltage regulator. So most people will likely replace the whole alternator.

Also alternators break down SUDDENLY more than alternators. One jumpstart start on my ford diesel truck lead to an overcharge driving home that burnt a diode so bad it broke and fell into the alternator and took out a fusible link that stopped me black on the highway in the middle of the night. Tow truck home thing after that. Another car I had ran good until a cold day when the heater and wipers were on. Then it would start missing and would barely run. Finally realizing it ran worse with the loading on the alternator I replaced the diode the was firing both ways making voltage spiking in the dc system screwing up the electronic ignition.

Generators take the power off the rotor through slip rings. The slip rings are a segmented commutator ring that the brushes rub against and take the current from the rotor. The segments are paired 180 degrees apart so that the positive and negative brushes are opposite to each other. Depending on where the rotor is is located in relation to the field the voltage produced will vary. This means that the commutator segments that pulls the current off while the rotor is in a 90 degree angle to the field will be the highest voltage produced. The current will be in a ripple current rising and lowering every revolution of the generator.
Generator advantages

The generator field windings are in the stationary part of the generator. Part of the field are from permanent magnets. If your battery is dead you can still push or pull start you vehicle.

Generators seldom break down suddenly. Voltage regulators fail more often , but if you pull the cover and push the right coil you can start charging and drive home or finish your job.


IMHO
If you run many auxiliaries off your electrical system the alternator is the only way to go.

If you very seldom even use your lights a generator is the better bet in the long run.

As my tractors are toys , I will be keeping all my tractors with generators.

George
 
Alternators have slip rings, generators have a commutator. Generator fields are not permanent magnets. That is why you can change the polarity from one polarity to the other. They do have a small residual magnetism to start the charge. There is enough iron in an alt rotor to have a residual magnetism also. If you know what you are doing, you can make them start charging without any imput from the regulator. Also a generator produces a steady DC current. There is very little up & down wave.
 
Here is some of my disagreement with the following statements you made:

You stated . . .

"the pulley used on a alternator can be sized for higher rpm at idle and all the way to max rpm of the engine. This increases the power available at all engine rpm."

The reality is, you can change pulley ratios on either for more output. Going by actual shaft RPM at the generator or alternator - a typical 12 volt tractor generator can output 5-20 amps at 1600 shaft RPM. A typical alternator, e.g. a Delco 10SI makes 23 amps at 1600 shaft RPM, a 12SI 30 amps at 1600 shaft RPM, and a 15SI 40 amps at 1600 shaft RPM. My point is that alternators make more power at the SAME RPMs as generators.
But yes, alternators are rated for higher revs, and they are often on engines that might spin 7000 RPMs. Not a problem on a 2400 RPM tractor.

You stated about alternators . . .

"Another advantage is that the field is all winding and no magnets. This enables full
excitation at low rpms "

What we are calling "generators" and "alternators" both use electromagnets for field power, and both also carry residual magnetism. Just happens that generators rely on that residual magnetism to get started in most setups (not all), whereas alternators use battery power. That being said, many alternators can self-field if you spin them fast enough.

You stated . . .

"The major disadvantage of the alternator is the diodes and the voltage regulator are built
in. Very few people can take an alternator apart and replace the diodes or brushes and or
the voltage regulator"

Very few people ?? In what context? I can change the brushes in a Delco 10SI in a few mintues without even taking it apart. When it comes to people who actually have mechanical expertise, there is little to NO difference. Especially when it comes to very simple alternators like Delco 10SIs or 12SIs. A few bolts and they come apart very easy. A person can swap in a new regulator and diode trio in a few minutes. Granted, there are newer models that require desoldering to take apart (e.g. the CS series), but they rarely appear on old farm tractors. How many people can turn the armature in an old generator or change out the field coils?

You stated . . .

"Generators seldom break down suddenly. Voltage regulators fail more often , but if you
pull the cover and push the right coil you can start charging and drive home or finish your
job. "

Seems like you've gone in a circle here. You say "most" people can't take apart a simple alternator, yet you assume these same people know how to work on a mechanical regulator? That is a huge stretch. The reality is, they all fail now and then - but alternators tend to be more reliable overall for several reasons. Brushes last much longer since they don't carry charge current, and the regulators are fully electronic (Delco 10SIs and 12SIs).

Getting away from tractors and speaking on cars. I was a mechanic when half the cars on the road had generators instead of alternators. If anything, we had more problems with them, not less.
 
Thanks guys. It was really more of an academic question to help others as my 2606 with new points, condenser, coil, SP wires (3 years old anyway), and now new wiring actually takes off after 3 or 4 revolutions with the starter as long as it is choked. I'm just nursing a bad battery that won't hold a full charge in cold weather. With Christmas near and I only use it every couple weeks to move hay, I can get by with charger. I have a float charger on it all the time. Typically I remove the ground cable when not in use.

Karl, it does resemble a 656 in the caseih book except it is gas.

Owen first brought up the resistance wire a while back. I've been looking for it. Went to a Napa in Tulsa and they sent me to the regular wire on the rack. Told them no and they looked in the book, said they didn't stock it and referred me to wire on the rack again. I took the book away from them and it showed a number for some wire but then went on to say that resistance wire was basic wire that is 2 guages smaller and to splice in about 6" worth. I had a roll of 14 guage anyway so I ren it to the coil from the starter for now. 10 guage from the starter to ignition. Sill waiting to get to a parts store that caries resistance wire but getting by right now.

I agree on the redundant grounds as wire is cheap.

I agree about the charger clamps on a coil possibly being a problem but my question was just part of an academic discussion here. Probably the float charger would do the same thing with less harm.
 
BC, if you want my unfettered opinion, it is this. FarmallHal's story is close to what I am going to tell you.

Old timer taught me to start a tractor this way, and BTW, it is with the hand crank.

Turn fuel on, and make sure ignition is off. Choke on full and throttle full. Turn the engine over 2 complete revolutions. Back choke off to 2/3's, throttle to 1/3, and ignition ON. Short, quick upstroke starting at the 04:00 position. If your ignition components are good, it will fire on the first pull (and if it is really cold out, you may still need full choke). BTW, this works well for MAG or BATTERY ignition.

Now, if you are trying to start an M, SM, or similar, cranking is a chore. I agree with John, not sure that connecting the battery charger directly to the coil is best. My first reaction is, that if you have a full charge on the battery, AND all the connections are clean, AND you have the right weight oil in the old girl, she should start. I have started a SM by hand cranking it with the battery charger on the battery (actually, if the battery is low or dead, I have started a number of tractors this way). If you are doing things right, the tractor starts in 1/4 of a revolution (or at least fires once). One of the misconceptions about crank starting an engine is that you spin it over like a starter motor.............that is where all the horror stories of broken arms, broken teeth, and worse come from.

Bottom line to all who are interested. 12v is more forgiving on sub-standard condition ignition components.....but even with 12v, if you have burnt or dirty points, a bad condenser, fuel delivery problems, dirty electrical connections or spark plugs with an .080+ gap, you aint' gonna start it my friend........unless you pull it around, and even then it will be a crap shoot.

If people are looking for the easy way out so they don't have to maintain their ignition or fuel systems, then I have absolutely nothing to offer, because a 12v system will fail just as a 6v system will...........just a little further down the "bad maintenance" road.

Lastly the gentleman that made the point of parts availability and cost, I also agree with him (12v components are more easy to find). I happen to know how to repair and maintain a points based ignition, and I have fun making these old girls run as they came from the factory. Notice I said FUN. I am not a member of the "CORRECT" police, however, I do chose to be correct as a personal choice, not a mandate for the rest of the world to be judged by.
 
just a few comments

I made a post to help people make an informed decision on whether to keep their generators.

Everything I posted is correct. Check it out yourself on the internet. This guy has a great write up.
http://www.rowand.net/Shop/Tech/AlternatorGeneratorTheory.htm


The people who feel comfortable repairing the newer equipment will likely have made the decision to change or not already.

I am not interested with arguing everyone who has his own opinions on how everything works.





george
 
I ran into the same situation as you. I bought an old M that had the engine beefed up so that the compression is pretty high. I started by replacing all wiring. A new harness, all new properly sized battery cables etc. I also had the starter checked out. The bottom line is that a six volt system will not turn that thing over fast enough to start it. I even tried and eight volt with no better results. I ended up having my electric shop set up my generator and regulator for 12 volt. It starts like a champ now. I have always been okay with the six volt systems and wanted to keep this one that way too. It just didn't work out.
 
Don't we all have "our own opinions" on how things work? The crucial aspect of that, is WHAT we base our opinions ON. Someone else's thesis on the Net, which is at best - a secondary source, or direct primary sources with hard data?

I guess if you found something on the Internet, it MUST be true ??

If so, what I am writing right now is also on the Internet. Seems that presents a problem.

I try to stick with proven verifed facts, and work from there. If I express something that is NOT based on fact, and more on my opinion, I say so. Your comments are insulting - mainly because I take the time to research data and have done so for a long time. Seems you have not done the same. Granted, I can make mistakes - and will glady fess up if you show me one of them.

Name one thing that I have stated on this subject, that is verified to be untrue.
 
jdemaris
are you joking?

(((In simplistic description, because a generator first makes alernating current, and due to brush placement, selects only portions of the current to produce an output of direct current.

On the other hand, an alternator uses just about all the power made, and with the use of rectifiers,converts it from alternating current into direct-current.

Thus the main reason why an alternator that is smaller and lighter then a generator, can make 30-50 amps at engine ilde speeds and 60-120 amps at max output. Whereas a typical generator can barely make 5 amps at idle and 15-30 amps at amps at max output.)))


this statement is so far out in space it shows your total lack of understanding how a split ring commutator works in a automotive generator. You repaired generators with this understanding of how they worked???? What a joke.


search split ring commutator and learn what we all know.

George
 
Not sure exactly what your problem is, but I guess it's not my job to figure it out.

Rotating a magnet inside a magnet always makes alternating current. That's what dynamos do, regardless if we're calling them "generators" or "alternators."

What we're calling "generators" as used in tractors . . use brushes to pick up current from segments in the commutator on the armature - timed in a way to just pick up the correct polarity to make DC current.

What we're calling "alternators" here . . . use rectifiers to make use of all the pulses, regardless of polarity.

Like I said, a simplistic description. Sorry it irks you in some way.

And yes, I've been repairing mags, generators, injection pumps, etc. for 40 years. I must admit though, when it comes to electrical components - I've yet to actually see an electron move, one way or another. never seen a photon either, although I know how to turn a flashlight on.
 
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