Farmall 460, gears not meshing right

Man, this tractor seems to be one thing after another, its a
good thing I like this Tractor when it does work well. I've
never seen something like this. I had a sound like a set of
gears were slipping and remeshing while the Tractor is
running and out of gear(in neutral). Its a pretty loud sound
And anyone who hears it would no doubt know something
was wrong. It is the "CounterShaft". I used the tractor the
day before and it worked fine, with no issues. Then, the next
day, I needed to shell some corn, so I hooked the sheller
skid to my 3 point and carried it out to the field where I shell
my corn. Then I connected the pto shaft as normal and
turned it on for a slow speed test run & it seemed fine.
Shortly after full speed shelling started, the grinding noise
started. Lowering the 3 point seemed to help for a brief
second or two but it did it again and now wont quit. And the
hydraulic pump gear and the large pto driving gear both
mesh together as normal.
So, I removed the hydraulic pump mounting plate and with
a light I can see that the large gear that drives the pump
gear and the small gear above it are not meshed correctly.
Simply put, it appears That the counter shaft has moved
about a 1/4" to 3/8" toward the rear of the tractor. Toward
the PTO. I know there are a few small shafts that run the
from the large hydraulic pump driving gear to the PTO
assembly. But what is in there that can slide? Anything that
can wear out and make this shift possible? The bolt on the
large pto gear is tight. If anyone has a book or knows what
I'm talking about, I think this noise is coming from the
"Constantly meshed gears area" on the counter shaft.
Any ideas of what this is and what I can do other than
break the tractor down? I really don't want to split that
Tractor if I don't Have to.
Thanks in advance for any ideas or advice.
Tod in Michigan.

The counter shaft is hollow , pto shaft runs through it and the counter shaft has a nut on the front to hold it in the front ball bearing. If counter shaft has moved back the nut has come off or bearing is shot and shaft has moved through bearing. Split coming up.

Just some things to check. Shaft that the PTO and hydraulic pump drive gear is on is short. I think you said the bolt that holds gear on shaft at the front is tight. That lower front PTO drive shaft has a bearing on the front and rear in the center housing. The rear bearing keeps it from moving forward or back. I think there's enough slack in the splined coupling that couples the front lower PTO shaft to the next one back that passes through the transmission counter shaft to move the amount you said. If the front shaft has moved back I suspect the rear bearing on it went bad or a snap ring that holds bearing is the problem. If the shaft moved back enough the front bearing on it may be torn up also. Remove the T shaped cover on the bottom of the center housing and look for loose parts and see if the shaft is loose. You can't see the transmission counter shaft unless you split the tractor or looked in from the top. PTO shaft going through the counter shaft has a bearing on the front and a bushing at the rear of the counter shaft. If any of the bearings are bad a split is eeded.

I reread your post, I thought you were talking transmisson countershaft. I would do what D Slater suggested.

After getting a 460D going with much help from this forum the hyd was next! Found the bolt had come out of the holder on the end og the large gear that drives the gear on the pump allowing big gear to slip back. The fix was through a large plug hole straght in front of the large gear! New bolt with locktite and on to the next problem,sealing! I hope this helps?? Good luck! Bud.

There was a change in the washer that was used to hold the gear on the shaft. Later washers are about twice as thick as the early ones which had a tendency to bend ans allow the gear to come loose on the shaft. If there is significant wear on the gear and shaft the shaft may protrude out the front of the gear so that the washer can not hold the gear tight on the shaft. My solution usually is to machine recess in the washer to force the gear farther on the shaft.

Owen I thought when the 460 started or shortly after the washer was made thinner and a little bigger diameter and also hardened more than the previous one. Shorter retaining bolt was also used. Did they change agian after 1958?

Well, I"m not sure if I wrote something wrong or what but everyone seems to be pointing to the bolt and or washer on the end of the countershaft that holds the hydraulic pump driving gear on. I actually replaced the washer this summer, twice. So, I am VERY familiar with that part and mine is tight and not the problem. Besides, the gears are mis-meshed in the other direction. The large gear that drives the pump has traveled toward the back of the tractor and if the washer/bolt were the issue and I could tighten the bolt, the two gears would not be aligned at all.
Please understand though, I appreciate any and all replies.
So I don"t confuse this with my reply to D Slater, I am going to post a separate reply to him.
Again,thank you for any and all replies. I appreciate everyone taking the time to post.
Merry Christmas and Happy Hollidays
Tod Michigan

(quoted from post at 15:24:08 12/13/10) Owen I thought when the 460 started or shortly after the washer was made thinner and a little bigger diameter and also hardened more than the previous one. Shorter retaining bolt was also used. Did they change agian after 1958?

Click to expand...

Well you got me thinking on the change to the 460 so I went to the parts books to look it up. You are correct that the 460 only calls for the thin washer.

The 560 and 660 started with the same thin washer as the 460 and then changed to the thick one. Both the 350 and 450 used the thick washer so the change came with the 460/560/660 tractors.

Thanks Pete23 for the reply. I have split this tractor 4 or 5 times this summer. Not fun. So, you think that if the shaft has slid backwards, then I need to replace a bearing? Can you tell me which bearing, and where it is located? And maybe where the tractor should be split to be able to do this. (I can do the rest- ha ha). I guess I don't understand how the bearing can keep the shaft in it proper location, can you explain that as well?
Thanks to all.
Tod Michigan

Thank you to everyone who took the time to post a reply and make suggestions, I really appreciate that you are trying to help.
I wanted to clear up this issue with respect to the bolt and specifically the washer that holds the gear on the end of that shaft. The washer and bolt are indeed tight and in place. I actually had lots of trouble with it this summer. The washer is actually a thick washer(about 1/8 to 3/16 thick) and is recessed(about 1/16") so it can go over the shaft slightly and the shoulder then keeps the gear tighter onto the splined shaft. I have fixed this issue early this summer and believe it is not the cause of the current issue. I have pulled the inspection plug and made sure the bolt is still tight, and also removed the pump mounting plate so I can visually see that everything is ok in this area and this is how I noticed that the Large gear that drives the hydraulic pump and the small gear above it are not aligned.
So I dont confuse things I will leave it at that. This post was in response of the replies about the washer and bolt issue.
Thanks again everyone for all your help.
Tod Michigan

I want to post a picture so we can all see the same picture. If this doesn't work, I will continue trying so please be patient. Thanks
460 INTERNATIONAL DI / 112 REAR FRAME & DRIVING MECHANISMS, POWER TAKE OFF DRIVE

Understood you said bolt was tight in my post to you. One to OWEN A. was just to see if there was something I didn't know about the gear retaining changes.
Putting a picture of shaft. Splined end is the gear mount. Race for the needle bearing is next. Needle bearing is pictured beside the shaft. Next ball bearing at rear and splined coupling that joins shaft to the next one at rear. Snap ring in the picture holds the rear ball bearing OD from moving to the rear. center housing is machined to keep it from going forward. Shaft is machined for the rear bearing ID. That along with the coupling pined to shaft keeps the bearing in place on shaft. That ball bearing handles the forward and rearward thrust of the shaft. Shaft is free to move forward and back in the needle bearing. If for some reason shaft moves to the rear enough for the drive gear to contact the needle bearing assembly it won't do it any good. If the shaft indeed has moved to the rear, thats why I suspect the ball bearing or retaining ring. Also may want to make sure the pto gear is not installed backwords on the shaft. Don't know if it would clear the housing though, never tried one backwards. Check that the top shaft has not moved forward. If it did though, most likley oil would be leaking out of the clutch compartment when running.

Understood you said bolt was tight in my post to you. One to OWEN A. was just to see if there was something I didn't know about the gear retaining changes.
Putting a picture of shaft. Splined end is the gear mount. Race for the needle bearing is next. Needle bearing is pictured beside the shaft. Next ball bearing at rear and splined coupling that joins shaft to the next one at rear. Snap ring in the picture holds the rear ball bearing OD from moving to the rear. center housing is machined to keep it from going forward. Shaft is machined for the rear bearing ID. That along with the coupling pined to shaft keeps the bearing in place on shaft. That ball bearing handles the forward and rearward thrust of the shaft. Shaft is free to move forward and back in the needle bearing. If for some reason shaft moves to the rear enough for the drive gear to contact the needle bearing assembly it won't do it any good. If the shaft indeed has moved to the rear, thats why I suspect the ball bearing or retaining ring. Also may want to make sure the pto gear is not installed backwords on the shaft. Don't know if it would clear the housing though, never tried one backwards. Check that the top shaft has not moved forward. If it did though, most likley oil would be leaking out of the clutch compartment when running.

I'm very sorry for trying to send a link of the picture of what we're talking about. I thought it would be helpful but I didn't know that I couldn't post a link. Again I apologize. If anyone wants to see the picture, drop me an email and I can get you to the picture.
Thanks,
Tod Michigan.

THANK YOU D SLATER FOR THE REPLY. Sounds like you really know what you're talking about. I wish I could say the same for myself.
I have never been in this area of my tractor. So, can you offer some breakdown instructions? Like where to crack the tractor apart, keep in mind that my tractor does not have the TA in it. I have cracked this tractor between the transmission and the TA section. I think with this job, I will need to crack it one section ahead of where I did, at the Motor and the clutch sections. I have a very nice stand that connects to the front section so that when the tractor is in two parts, I can roll the front section out of my way so I can work on what I need to, it works well.
So, I don't believe it is the front gear, the on that drives the large gear that drives the hydraulic pump. It does not leak anywhere and from what I can see up in there it doesn't have a whole lot of space to move forward.
As for the picture of that shaft you sent, I haven't seen that before, so that is very helpful. I question that the picture of that shaft is my shaft. Are you sure that is mine for sure? I am trying to post a picture of a breakdown/drawing from the Case IH dealer web site that has also been helping me. So I don't do any unnecessary tear down, I would like to be able to email a picture to you. I have sent you a message directly to you so I can try to email this diagram from the Case, IH dealer to you.
Until we get that, I think it's best to wait to go any further. Thanks a million guys, This site is awesome.
Tod Michigan