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The great Super C vs Straight H debate...

P

Pete76NY

Well-known Member
...I read with interest and posted and am still amazed by some of the answers! So I will issue this challenge: Show proof that your Straight H is bone stock (no 1/8 overbores, no governor springs, no huge tires, electronic ignitions...in other words a true bone stock NATPA Div I legal tractor) as I will prove to you about our Super C. AND you don't have the optional low low 1st gear! Bring your tractor here to Upstate, NY and we will start a lil ol competition: I will concede that you will hold more weight back coming down a hill, and I am sure you will concede that I will win the agility so we can dispense with these. We can start by weighing in, then hooking to a good sled...I'll even give ya best 2 out of 3!!! Then we'll hook to a 2 bootom plow and hit the fields, then hook up to a Hog (your choice of size), maybe do some raking, crimping, heck maybe even some baling!!! We can have neutral operators because other than on the track there will be no clear winner, so we will have to seek opinions. But I do guarantee that the Super C will do EVERYTHING the H will do and not have to strain to do it! I also guarantee that we won't need the 3rd hook to have a winner on the track!
Now for those of you "there's no difference between an H and a Super H...same criteria...I'll supply the Super H too!
 
Whatever your smoking,,,,, I want some. Is your super c stock or a modified puller? My stock H has 34 hp, with flat top pistons. No special mods anywhere. I farmed alot with a super c and a regular H and the super c was no match. Even thought the super c was in better shape and tighter. Hs and Cs are a joke anyways, get an M if you want to pull something.
But your words are spoken like a true idiot.
 
I can't say that everything Pete is saying is right or wrong because I've never been into tractor pulling. I can say that I have spent (back in the late '50s) many days on a Super C and a few on a C. There is a world of difference between a C and SC. I have also done a little with an H, but it had some SH upgrades, so power wise it was stronger than a stock H. There is [u:32ed666ee2]absolutely[/u:32ed666ee2] no comparison as far as being handy and manuverable between a SC and an H... none what-so-ever. Had an uncle with a wide front SC and he changed it to a narrow... not sure why, but he did.
I plowed, disked, planted and cultivated corn and beans, mowed, raked, pulled an AC All Crop combine, Wood Bros. corn picker, just about anything you would want with that SC. Wish I had one now. I wouldn't take an H if you gave me one.... well, maybe for a parade tractor. That C-123 is one tough little engine. I now have a 240U and it will surprise you what they will pull. For brush-hogging, I would want a tractor with live or IPTO, but you already have a bigger/newer tractor. Even my 240 doesn't have IPTO and it's a 1958 model, so small IHs were a little behind the times in that area.
There isn't enough difference in a SC and a 200 to bother about... mostly sheet metal and decals.
 
Have a Super M...fun pullin that too, as well as the Super H and about a dozen others colors and models I might choose from, but the SC remains my favorite to pull as the only time between 3000# and 5000# lbs that I know I am gonna get beat is if someone shows with a Super 66!
Our Super C is bone stock, rebuilt about 3 years ago with new sleeves and pistons in stock size, as I said, NO over bore, modified governors, electronic ignitions...even has a stock pipe and uses the stock air cleaner...11.2-36s so as stock as you can get...has narrow front (or it wouldn"t be handy) and quick hitch.
As far as on the track goes, I only pull NATPA pulls, and tightly run one"s at that, strictly Division I: weighed, tached, tire sizez checked, cylinder removed form the quick hitch before ya hook, after ya hook and every time ya leave the pits! In about 10 years of pulling with it both pre and post rebuild, it has only been beaten by a Straight H once; and that had the optional low low 1st (has lost to a W4 once too).
I have a friend who sold IH on the 50"s and 60"s in Cortland, NY says he only Straight Hs they sold after the Super C came out was when they cost saled the in stocks because, "the Super C was cheaper, handier and could out work an H!"
So unfortunately my job prevents me from smoking anything nowadays, but I do enjoy a Captain Morgan now and then...and I might not know much about alot of things, but this idiot does know what he"s talkin" about here...Challenge stands...then the loser buys a bottle for the other and changes his handle in here to "Imtheidiotaboutih" for a year? C"mon...putchyur money where your mouth is!!!!
 
BTW...if you're pushin 34 HP you are modified...a Straight H was factory estimated @ 17-19 drawbar HP and actually Nebraska tested at 24. The Super C was factory claimed to be 21 I believe and Nebraska tested @ 24. Better power to weight ratio...oh yeah I'll give ya heavy loader work too due to the true frame as opposed to the torque tube design. H might get down the road a lil faster too if that matters to ya...Super C is exctuciatingly slow in 4th!
And when adding weights, we have to hang only stock weights in stock locations for Div. I so can't even claim it's due to suitcase weights hangin all iver in wierd places when ya lose! lol
 
I can assure you, noone will take you up on your challenge! Even if you proved them wrong, they wouldnt admit to it, or get mad and leave!!!
 
A Super H tested @ 34 and a Straight M @ 36 db HP...you sure you weren't talkin' about your M Stewie?
 
I dont give a flying rats behind what anybody thinks. I love my H and it has been nothing but good to me. If you actually KNOW how to drive a H properly, than there is NO competition. Take your SC's and shove um.
 
Even if my H is an overbore, its still stock because that is what was used back in the era when the engine wore out, but Iam pretty sure its stock. I have a dyno and have tons of tractors on it day in and day out, even a wimpy one can pull 27 hp. Mine is stock and 34 is what it has. Back in the day around 25 years ago, a friend had an C with 45 hp. He actually moved the cylinders in the block with boring bar and put 706 pistons in it, real cocky tractor, never did pull wore a darn though. Nebraska test on a H is 26 hp.
 
A C never had enough power to rear up, just light enough to spin out. Hp to weight ratio doesnt mean a thing plowing or pulling. I have a JD 60 with 43 hp and I can out plow tractors with 55 hp and out pull them if I get enought weight on it. I wiegh in stock at 6200 lbs at 43 hp you might consider it a dog, but its not,it never runs out of power, even in the 10,000lb class. Maybe as a puller a c is better but not on the farm.
 
Nope, I promise you it was the H. Its been a long time since an M dynoed only 36 hp, that was back when the first M was built, even with the same bore and aluminum pistons that are flat tops you can get 45 out of them. I have a M with 55 hp, stock head but must have overbore pistons and a new governor to, that helps. Never been inside that M, it must have firecraters in it. Hell my Farmall A that I just got running with cast iron flat top pistons, stock bore has 20 hp and they are only rated for I believe 14 -16 hp.
 
Hell a good JD B will beat a C any day, way heavier and more power. I think your full of it. If you one that much you never had any competition. I will pull against you, but then you have to come to my farm and actually use the tractor for its intended purpose. On both sides I will win.
 
I have a B that will give most Super C FITS when it come to pulling! It has the same cubes as a Super C just in a smaller package!
2/12 or a 2/14 ih plow in second gear all day if you can stand the bouncing around in the seat!
 
My two cents...I had the privelege of growing up on the farm with all 3 of the tractors in question, a SC, regular H, and a SH. The SC is by far the handiest of the 3, easy to steer and pulls suprisingly well for it s size, but doesn t lug down or have the traction of the H s. Great on gas though ! You had to keep the motor revving on it if you were pulling something heavy or tough . I never found it as enjoyable for heavy work as I did for say, mowing and raking. It seemed to be straining and would be kinda bouncy and light feeling, especially in the front end. The regular H could do more hard work and smoother , but the gearing wasn t right like on SH. Too slow in second and not enough power to use 3rd. The regular H had a sweet sound to that motor however. The SH had much more power and was more balanced overall than the other 2, the motor had more of a bark to it when pulling, and better brakes too. Coming up our big hill with a fully loaded wagon behind the SC was a little un-nerving, as the tires would begin to slip and you would lose forward progress a little, but it wouldn t power out ! Always made it though ! lol
 
Not sure where you are getting your hp numbers from. Looking in Guy Fays International Harvestor Tractor Data Book.

Cubic inches: Super C 123, H 152.1
Rated RPM: Super C 1650, H 1650
Drawbar HP: Super C 21.67, H 25.5
Belt HP: Super C 24.45, H 27.9
Weight: Super C 2900, H 3725

The Super C is going to be much handier for maneuvering, etc. The extra weight of the H is going to have its advantages. The Super C will win in the weight to hp ratio. It they are both truely, 100% stock then I would find it hard to believe that the Super C will out pull the H. The drawbar hp is already taking into account the extra weight of the H. The size of the tires on them can make a big difference also. Bigger is not always better. A bigger tire will stand taller causing higer ground speeds for the same gear. Lots and lots of factors that can influence the outcome. I like my Cs but would not want to put it on a baler like we did our H when I was a kid. Not that I liked running the baler with the H and no live pto. Not when we had a Case 300 with live power. We always thought that the Case 300 was a bigger tractor than the H. Turns out that the H has 152 cu in while the Case 300 only has 148 cu in. But with the 12 speed in it the Case 300 would out perform the H day in and day out.
 
A 60 has much more versatility than my 70 by virtue of the fact that the 70 has such a tall 1 and 2nd gear...if/when I drop down to 7000# with the 70, a good weighted up 60 will usually beat me! Credit where credit is due!
 
Takes me 5 sets or regular wheel weights and one set of halves to get to 4500#...not much spinnin goin on then, but depending on the track she will occasionally spin out! But you are right about the H vs SH!
 
I have a straight H, as well as a few others. Just last night I mowed about 15 acres with it running a 6 foot king kutter. My neighbor brought out his SC and 5 foot hog, and joined in. Im not bashing his tractor or any SC, but it definately didn"t handle the heavier stuff as well as my H did. His SC was heating up, and didn"t seem to have the grunt in the thick stuff. The H was barking pretty good too, but seemed to power through with less effort. Now both tractors have been rebuilt in the last 5 yrs with 1/8 in overbores. Maybe mine is a little tighter...i dunno. His doesn"t smoke and runs excellent to my standard, as does my H. I mainly mow my grass with the H, but on occasion I"ll hook to a 2-16 little genius. Without a doubt my H handles the plows much better than his SC, on the same plow. Now I can"t speak for a groomed track, but comparing the two tractors I"m familiar with, in working conditions, I believe the H"s weight advantage and larger displacement makes it a better working tractor. Maybe I"m wrong but I think it"ll perform heavier work for a longer period of time than a SC will as well, because of larger physical size ie: displacement, bearings, axles ect... I definately won"t argue manuverability. This is similar to the SM vs 350 power debate, which in my opinion the SM wins hands down. But again I can"t speak for a track... The only thing i pull are implements and sometimes a sled with my kids on it. My H seems to handle them both pretty well. Take care, Shawn
 
IF you are stock you have the C-113 engine which had the same cubes as a straight C not a Super C, and yes if I wanted to strip her down to 2500# you MIGHT come close...but that apples to oranges...a man has to know his limits, I start pullin her @ 3500# and that's a tad light...really starts hookin' up @ 4000#. The difference is that I am talking about playing right in the H's wheel house weight wise...I wouldn't pick on an H for losing to a Super C anyway...it's life. but I certainly wouldn't expect them to strip down to 3000# and be competitive. I'll keep stackin' weights up to any weight as long as the H guys wanna keep playin!
Just so ya don't think I'm a fibber here is a pic 3 weeks ago at a non NATPA pull so we had some 75# hangers on the front to keep her down. This is 4500#, at a NATPA pull she'd have stock front wheel weights, and another set of fulls on the back...the halves are down on the fast hitch where ya can't see em here...usually they's have to be on the wheels...I keep the halves inside the rim!
a26079.jpg
 
Ummmm let's see...left foot on the clutch, right foot on the brakes, one hand on the steering wheel, azz in the seat, other hand on the throttle or hydraulic lever if not on the wheel? Is there another way? I seem to have a fairly good grasp of how to drive each model...shove them or pull them the Super C wins. Don't you guys understand...I love H's...don't dislike 'em a bit...just giving the Super C it's due credit. The H was a tired design by 1951 when the Super C was intro'd...Guy Fay will tell ya, if they didn't update the H to the Super they'd never have sold many more. It's no shame...just life.
My brother is a guitar player...he can get more and better sound out of a much smaller amp today than Les Paul did in the 40's it's called anvancements in technology. I'll take every H and Super C anyone will give me!!! C's. A's, B's, M's W's too!
 
You guys need to quit bickering about the same color tractor and worry about the different colors. (Not that there's much competition anyway) lol
 
Hi, all. I am not saying that I have a lot of understanding on all of this. I have a super h, that seems like a great tractor. I think that the c is also a great tractor, that can do anything that an h can do except on a bit smaller scale. I can not see how a tractor with more gear options, slightly more horsepower,and more weight cannot be better suited for pulling, and doing more work. My super H has power steering, which I believe was an add on, which makes it about as maneuverable as a c, but in general I could see that a C could be some what more maneuveralble.
 
Well if you just start hooking up at 4000 then I really don't think your SC is stock!
Oh and by the way your the support on your steering shaft (the one on the torque tube) is up side down. It might steer easier with it turned the right way.
 
I pull an H and a Super C. Super C is also a working tractor with a six foot woods belly mower. If you are pulling a Super C at 4500 it is either not stock or you have a very long chain on the sled. My H has been div 3 for a few yrs but used to pull it "stock" as grandpa left it with overbore kit. H wins hands down but love them both.
 
In 1965 I hooked a Super C wide front with Fire Crater kit and calcium in the tires, drawbar to drawbar with a Ferguson 35 that had 12.4 -28 tires with calcium in them. I dragged the Ferguson 35 about 6 feet before we terminated the pull. I myself was surprised at the result. It was at that point I realized the Ferguson 35 wasn"t a very good pulling tractor.
 
They way i see it, unless the tractors just rolled off the assembly line, there would be no true winner if everyone wants to get technical. With how old these tractors are every worn down part and bearing takes away hp. With that said, Ive had my bone stock H with unmatched tires hooked to a stone boat weighing in at 14k pounds and pulled it. That was one time and i have never been able to pull on that track with those conditions again and make a full pull at 14k ....and it does need new tires. However every pull near me all the c's will give up at the 3500- 4000 class....the H's run from the 3500- 5000.

In a hay raking situation the super c would have an advantage. More range in ground speed i think. Pulling a trailer type plow the H would win hands down. Running a bailer ....the c wouldn't stand a chance compared to an H. And being a frame tractor ....i would just feel way more comfortable pulling an H than a C
 
BONE STOCK! TY, I know, had to replace the driveshaft coupler cpl mos ago and put it on upside down, seems fine so I haven't bothered to switch it back yet! Pete
 
Pete, do you have a picture of the right side of the tractor? So we can see the bellhousing.

Neighbor has a SC with a STOCK COMBINE ENGINE that makes 50 hp!

I pulled it before and after the engine swap, the stock engine was done at 3800lbs, pulling off the exact same hitch you have there,

put in the other engine it would run 5000lbs and not break a sweat.

Broke the rear hubs clean off the axle though,,
 
I don't believe the guy that started the SC vs. H thread was going to use his for "pulling". He wanted to use it as it was intended, on a small farm. I don't see how tractor pulling is very related to the real world.
I can say we had a SC and used it to farm. Our neighbor to the north had an H and pulled the same size implements, except ours were Fast-Hitch mounted and his were pull type. We seemed to get our fields plowed, disked, dragged and planted as fast as he did, and ours was handier to get around. He also had a 9N or 2N Ford (I can't tell the difference and don't care) he prefered for some of the work.
Buy a narrow front SC or 200 with F-H and front and rear weights and don't look back (except to watch your implement :lol: ).
 
Oh I love all colors! Just that a stock green one up til '53 can't hang! Know this cuz I have em!
 
Tempola, It looks like your SC in the photo has a combine or power unit engine in it. Just wondering is it a 123,135 or153? Mark
 
Mark, that tractor in the photo has a 135 power unit engine as he is building it into a puller. He lives on down the Interstate about 150 miles from here. Nice to see you here on the forum when C's and SC's are being chatted about. Hope winter isn't going to bad this year up your way, Hal.
 
(quoted from post at 14:24:17 11/19/10) I don't believe the guy that started the SC vs. H thread was going to use his for "pulling". He wanted to use it as it was intended, on a small farm. I don't see how tractor pulling is very related to the real world.
I can say we had a SC and used it to farm. Our neighbor to the north had an H and pulled the same size implements, except ours were Fast-Hitch mounted and his were pull type. We seemed to get our fields plowed, disked, dragged and planted as fast as he did, and ours was handier to get around. He also had a 9N or 2N Ford (I can't tell the difference and don't care) he prefered for some of the work.
Buy a narrow front SC or 200 with F-H and front and rear weights and don't look back (except to watch your implement :lol: ).
Click to expand...

Thanks, when I initially asked the question I was thinking about using the tractor on my small farm. My only concern is that I also want to use it for some mowing. I've also run across a super M that would have the power but I'm still debating if I should go for IPTO? Now I'm starting to look at 300 and 400s but they are really scarce in this area. Not sure where this will end up but I'm still pretty smitten by the SC with fast hitch that I have already looked at.

All of your replies and thoughts are pretty interesting though.
 
I have seen a couple of 450s for sale around here... matter of fact I just saw one with a loader last week, but can't remember exactly where. I move cars for a local dealer and see stuff parked or for sale all the time, but have a hard time remembering where :oops: I had one summer of experience working for a ranch in SD with both a 350D and 450 gas. We called the 350D the "gutless wonder", but for what we used it for, it was okay. At that time, IH diesels did not have the rep of having a lot of power compared to gas.
Watch the classifieds here for one in your neck of the woods. Not sure the first small IH to have IPTO, but my 1958 240U does not... maybe the 404 did.
 
Hey there Hal, You know I have a soft spot for those Super C`s !! How`s that fast hitch hay rake coming along anyhow. I can`t wait to see a picture of the finished product. Tempola`s SC engine just caught my eye when I saw the fuel pump on the engine. I more was wondering if he put a C-153 in it. I never saw one in a SC, but heard they`d bolt right up. Weather`s not too bad yet around here, but soon will take a turn for the worse. :-(
 
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