Hey guys! Still looking at buying a little genius plow for minimal use and parades. The 3 bottom that I showed pictures of previously has 16" bottoms. I know that is what the M, SM and MD is rated for and these are all the tractors I would potentially be using with it. Person selling it says it is too much for his SM though. Maybe the plow is not set right or his SM is weak... What do you guys think? I would only be plowing a few acres a year (2 or 3 acres of grass at the most every few years). Price is right on it and it is not too far away from me but dont want to buy it if its going to be too much. Thanks!!!

Depends on the plow but you may be able to reduce it to 2 bottoms if you find out it's too much.

Really it's going to depend on the ground conditions. Certain types of soil plow harder than others. Sod (grass) plows harder than corn ground.

A Super M in good condition should be able to handle 3-16's in virtually all soil conditions. Most M's, MD's and Super MD's that have been overhauled got increased bore piston/sleeve kits in the process and this gives most of them enough power to handle 3-16's too. Of course there is always some condition or type of soil that is extremely hard to plow such as tight clays and sodded or hard packed ground that is quite dry. The tractor will always need good proper sized tires with additional weight on the rear wheels and maybe some front end weights of a sort too if the plowing conditions are tough. Excessive rear wheel slippage makes plowing difficult and robs horsepower that is needed to "get to the ground" to efficiently pull any plow that is rated to the tractor's capacity.

Whether your a SM will handle a 3x16" plow depends upon the conditon of the tractor & more so, the soil type you will be plowing along with depth. Back in the day (mid "50s to early "60s) we pulled a 3x14" # 16 plow with our "54 SM. At 10" deep in our Sable & Ipava loams it was all the tractor wanted, usually plowed in 2nd gear but sometimes 1st, don"t ever remember plowing in 3rd with it. Tractor had 4 1/8" Firecraters, M&W governor, dual on the land side, 6 weights on the furrow side & fluid in all three tires.

A couple years ago I bought a 4x16 #60 plow from a a guy that use to pull it with a Stage 1 SM in light, sandy soils. My SMTA with 4/18" M&W Powr dome pistons & M&W governor wouldn"t pull it in our black soils though I"ll add the tractor doesn"t have fluid in the rear tires & only 2 sets of rear weights. Even if it would have had the weight I don"t think the tractor would have had the power to pull the plow at 8-10".

None of my tractors have been rebuild to my knowledge but all run good; hold good oil pressure and little/no blowby. I am in central Iowa; not sure of soil type other than black and sticky! Think I will probably pass on this plow then and keep looking for a 3-14 or even a 3-12 (if they made one). Thanks for the input.

no problem at all if it has a hard time in 3rd gear us 2nd gear. if that dont do it then need to hook a 560 to it and make the M beg for mercy as was said yesterday here about the 560 compairing it to the M. and another thing you dont need to plow 1 ft. deep.

I asked the same question about my SMTA, and a JD 4200 3-16 Rollover plow this spring. Most everyone said "no WAY".
But, The ol girl pulled er just fine. 3rd gear with the TA in high most of the time, 8-10" deep. Nice loamy soil.
Pictures to prove it!

Buy it you will be ok.

(quoted from post at 19:46:29 10/23/10) None of my tractors have been rebuild to my knowledge but all run good; hold good oil pressure and little/no blowby. I am in central Iowa; not sure of soil type other than black and sticky! Think I will probably pass on this plow then and keep looking for a 3-14 or even a 3-12 (if they made one). Thanks for the input.

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Matt, seeing that you are from central Iowa, I can just about guarantee that all of your tractors have been rebuilt at least once, and more likely, several times. Any tractor that is 60 to 70 years old and has never been rebuilt just plain never got used very much, and most farm tractors in Iowa had to earn their keep. Also, your decision to look for a 3-14s plow instead of the 3-16s is a wise decision. Your Super M will pull the 3-16s, but it will be a whole lot happier with a 3-14s behind it, and you will be happier also.

When your plowing grass, the plow shares must be sharp so they CUT the roots of the grass instead of trying to pull them out. This alone will make the most differents

Looks like the same type JD plow that was sitting next to the nice 450 gas I drug home a couple months ago, I thought about it a bit as the 450 has a nice 3-pt hitch on it- they said they didn't think it would pull that plow, but had never tried it either. I remember we always pulled 3-14's with our pair of regular M's with no problem before we got the 706D's, sure seems like that 450 should handle it- probably need to hang a little weight on the front before picking it up, though..

I live in sw wisconsin. I have a Farmall 400 with 62 hp and it had a hard time pulling 3-14s. I was weighted properly and the plow was set up properly to.

So you use 2nd gear for a couple A no big deal and theres always 1st gear

I had an old Oliver 3 -14 bottom plow. it could have been 16, but Im pretty sure it was 14. I had no problems pulling it in 3rd gear with my M, but it has M&W pistons. It did fine unless I set it up too deep and it hit the red clay. (9 - 12" deep) BUT I have another M that wouldnt pull it 4 inches deep! It has the 4" overbore kit, but flat top pistons. I never got to try it on my 40 M with pretty much the same set up as the first M, I sold the plow. I do have what dad called a "lightweight" 7 shank scarifier that all 3 Ms pulled very well at about 7 - 8 inches, but the Non M&W M doesnt do well in unplowed soil. Id be willing to bet the MD would pull it better than the Super M and M.

I have thought about drilling another set of holes in the frame of the plow. Be able to move the 2nd and 3rd bottoms forward some and make a 3-14 out of it, as it already has the holes to mount as an 18" plow. Just incase I ran accross some hard soil.

I had about 600# of weights hung off the front so I didn't hafta steer using just the brakes. Wouldn't of minded another 200#.

Ben

"Central Iowa" can encompass alot of different ground, but I was at the Belmond, IA show this summer and watched a Super M and other three bottom tractors struggle with 3-14s when I didn't think they should have struggled. So, I would believe a 3-16 may be too much for a Super M.

One thing to keep in mind with these #8 Little Geniuses, the three bottom plows are commonly found as a two bottom with an add-on third beam like the 3-16 you have found. 99% of the time the third beam will be sprung on those plows because it was a weak design. It will plow, it just will do an awful job. The answer is to find a full-frame three bottom which could be found as a #8, #15, or #16, or shim up your plow and get it aligned (I did it with my grandpa's 3-14), or take off the third bottom and use it as a two bottom. My suggestion to you, since the plow is a good deal and looks to be in good condition, would be to buy it and turn it into a 2-16. You can use the best shares and boards and still have a set as a spare. If you need to talk the seller down, you can tell him that a 3-16 is a size of plow few people would want, and if someone did want that size of plow they would want a hydraulic lift, and the third beam is sprung.

You can continue looking for a 3-14 or 3-12 but keep in mind what you're going to find. 3-12s are out there, just not common. I would say since you are beginner, get this plow, make it a 2 bottom and have fun with it.

(quoted from post at 12:38:52 10/24/10) "Central Iowa" can encompass alot of different ground, but I was at the Belmond, IA show this summer and watched a Super M and other three bottom tractors struggle with 3-14s when I didn't think they should have struggled. So, I would believe a 3-16 may be too much for a Super M.

One thing to keep in mind with these #8 Little Geniuses, the three bottom plows are commonly found as a two bottom with an add-on third beam like the 3-16 you have found. 99% of the time the third beam will be sprung on those plows because it was a weak design. It will plow, it just will do an awful job. The answer is to find a full-frame three bottom which could be found as a #8, #15, or #16, or shim up your plow and get it aligned (I did it with my grandpa's 3-14), or take off the third bottom and use it as a two bottom. My suggestion to you, since the plow is a good deal and looks to be in good condition, would be to buy it and turn it into a 2-16. You can use the best shares and boards and still have a set as a spare. If you need to talk the seller down, you can tell him that a 3-16 is a size of plow few people would want, and if someone did want that size of plow they would want a hydraulic lift, and the third beam is sprung.

You can continue looking for a 3-14 or 3-12 but keep in mind what you're going to find. 3-12s are out there, just not common. I would say since you are beginner, get this plow, make it a 2 bottom and have fun with it.

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That is a very good idea. I like it.

not to start a fight or anything, but, if you boys set a 14inch plow at 10 inches deep and pulled it all day like they were designed to do you will not have a plow in a week.
I have yet to find one yet that suggests plowing deeper than half the width of the bottom.
a 16inch should plow 8 inches deep, a 14 should be set at 7.
You guys really have crops with a root system deeper than that?
other than alfalfa I have never seen roots much deeper than 5 inches.

not to start a fight or anything, but, if you boys set a 14inch plow at 10 inches deep and pulled it all day like they were designed to do you will not have a plow in a week.
I have yet to find one yet that suggests plowing deeper than half the width of the bottom.
a 16inch should plow 8 inches deep, a 14 should be set at 7.
You guys really have crops with a root system deeper than that?
other than alfalfa I have never seen roots much deeper than 5 inches.

My dad allways used 2-16's on the M's


Absolutly

2-16 is about all you want to pull with an M.

Sure in very easy going it may work but anything tough and your done.

The alternative to make it go ==> over balast the tractor and go to a lower gear. For a few hour demo this will work but after plowing for a week something will break as it wasn't designed for this load.

You must not have seen the trenches they did to show how deep corn roots go.

(quoted from post at 03:56:55 10/25/10) You must not have seen the trenches they did to show how deep corn roots go.

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I have seen those pictures, or maybe I saw it on RFD-TV, but yes, corn roots go a whole lot deeper than 10 inches. That is why, occasionally, you need to use one of those V-rippers that go WAY deep.

>>>>>>not to start a fight or anything, but, if you boys set a 14inch plow at 10 inches deep and pulled it all day like they were designed to do you will not have a plow in a week<<<<<<<

Tat's odd. We pulled a 3x14" # 16 plow at 10" for close to 15 years in Sable & Ipava loam without tearing it up. Only thing would get "torn up" was your hind end if the old man caught you plowing less than 10"

As he always said "if you're going to plow less than 10" you might just as well just disc the ground."

if you were not tearing it up then you would have no trouble pulling it with an M.
maybe read the implement book on the plow sometime might I suggest field operation as a starting point.

What is corn?
only went through 2000 acres of it this fall and about half of that got plowed.
smaller plows are forgiving, the bigger ones will rip the bottoms off if you try to go too deep.

What is corn?
only went through 2000 acres of it this fall and about half of that got plowed.
smaller plows are forgiving, the bigger ones will rip the bottoms off if you try to go too deep.

So tractors in other areas never earned their keep?
I know of 2 old farmalls that have never been touched other than maint..
both of these tractors were bought new and stayed in the family, both on dairy farms and both were used daily.
I would be willing to bet their are some in IA too as I have never seen one that was flat wore out yet.
I have seen them with problems caused by lack of care though.
If you drive north a ways I can show you a 560D that has had a turbo on it since before my time that has 16,000 on the clock and has never been opened although it has developed a miss.
please also explain why a refer engine on a semi trailer will run for over 30,000 hours without nothing but oil changes and fuel?

So tractors in other areas never earned their keep?
I know of 2 old farmalls that have never been touched other than maint..
both of these tractors were bought new and stayed in the family, both on dairy farms and both were used daily.
I would be willing to bet their are some in IA too as I have never seen one that was flat wore out yet.
I have seen them with problems caused by lack of care though.
If you drive north a ways I can show you a 560D that has had a turbo on it since before my time that has 16,000 on the clock and has never been opened although it has developed a miss.
please also explain why a refer engine on a semi trailer will run for over 30,000 hours without nothing but oil changes and fuel?

If you tried to set ANY plow 10" deep around my parents' farm, you'd pull up every boulder in the county. Probably break the plow too if it wasn't for the auto-reset trip bottoms.

They rented some of the land to a neighbor farmer this year. He did "zone till" which goes like 12" deep. This guy dragged up boulders so heavy they were lifting the rear wheels of the loader tractor off the ground.

If you've got 12" of loamy topsoil to plow, that's great. It's not that way for everybody.

Here's a little armchair engineering.
Preface: I drove a 10-20, an F-20, several
F-12s, and two Hs over maybe 25 years all together. Had a little time in recent years on a Super M, but unfortunately never got to plow with it.

The H and M were advertised as "2-plow" and "3-plow" tractors, but in my opinion, they were marginal.
After the H and M came out they were always compared to the F-20 and F-30, and usually came up short in the opinion of farmers who had used both. My father had 2 Hs, and neither would plow out of second gear except in very light, sandy soil (like in the fall, after the corn harvest). Oh, I should mention that we pulled the 2-12" Little Genius that my father had bought for his F-12. An uncle had an M, and in his stiff clay soil, he pulled the 2-14" Little Genius he had bought with a 10-20 some years before. We must keep in mind something about this: "plowing speed" was a term used in the 20s and 30s to refer to about 3 mph, and that was roughly the speed of second or "plowing gear" in many tractors of that era. In other words, tractors were designed to plow at about 3 mph. Now, I used to plow with an F-20 converted to rubber, and it would pull a 2-14" Little Genius at nearly 4 mph (36" tires speeded up the tractor quite a bit compared to the original 40" steel wheels). I attribute this to the fact that old steel-wheeled tractors wasted a good bit of power at the wheels, so the engines had to put
out nearly double the drawbar horsepower in order
to pull the "rated load" (either h.p. or a certain number of plows). Usually these engines ran pretty slow compared to modern tractors, so they had to be big to put out the h.p. This meant that they had a lot of torque. An H is NOT a torquey machine. With only 152 c.i.d., it is very easy to pull down with an overload. I remember vividly plowing in FOURTH gear with an F-20, a heavy overload, but the tractor would not stall. It slowed down to about half governed speed, but it kept going. An H will NOT do that.
An M has an engine not too much bigger than an
F-20, and it does run faster, but it would not have had the torque of an F-30, which had somewhat more displacement. As to driving the beasts, the H and M are "like driving a car," as a cousin of mine said after he bought a Super H.
The F-20 and F-30 are brutish by comparison. As a kid I loved the -20, but I wouldn't be too
wild about riding one of these broncos all day in a rough field.

The answer is yes. 3-16's are too much for a M, SM, MD but you can make them pull it as lots of farmers did including myself. You can get enough power out of the motor and add weights but you can not strengthen the transmission. If you need to go over 10 in. deep I have a 5 shank ripper that takes care of the hard pan and no a M won't pull that either. I farmed with a M, SMD, SM also a B450 diesel back years ago.