Adding live hydraulic pump on plain M

CenTex Farmall · Oct 19, 2010

I want to move my loader to a plain M to free up the Super M it's currently on. I have acquired another live pump to put on the M and am wondering if it's as simple as bolting it on or are there any issues with drive gears or something I didn't think of.

Anonymous-0 · Oct 19, 2010

The easiest way to do this is with the power steering pump from a half-ton GM pickup truck. It's easy to install and easy to plumb.

Unless you have a late 1950 or 1951 M, you have the older cam drive gears. The old gears will run the add-on pump from M&W gear ok but not the IH pump. You need the later gears from a Super M, 400, or 450 for the IH pump. If the cam has been changed you could have the later gears. If you want to use a distributor mounted pump and have live hydraulics in addition to power steering from that pump you will also need the priorty valve.

CenTex Farmall · Oct 19, 2010

Do you know if all 50 and 51 M's had the updated cam gear? Is the difference in the tooth pitch or in the overall strength of the gear?

I hadn't thought about using a p.s. pump. I didn't think it would have enough flow.

glennster · Oct 19, 2010

the very late m was set up for the live pump. the cam gear was a lot heavier also to handle the pump. also, the front timing cover is a little different on the top two bolts where the pump attaches. if you had a cover from a late m or super m, its a straightforward install. yt sells the upgrade cam gear. you can also plug the top two bolt holes on the old style cover, file them off flat and then re-drill the top two holes and tap them for the live pump.

IH fan · Oct 19, 2010

(quoted from post at 13:38:32 10/19/10) Do you know if all 50 and 51 M's had the updated cam gear? Is the difference in the tooth pitch or in the overall strength of the gear?

I hadn't thought about using a p.s. pump. I didn't think it would have enough flow.

You would need an external reservoir for a GM PS pump... the can on the PS pump is not large enough [u:e65bb7d3b5]for a loader[/u:e65bb7d3b5].
(edited to clarify that I meant for a loader and not PS)

CenTex Farmall · Oct 19, 2010

I've never looked close enough to notice. I have two or three 50-51 M's and I'll look at them close and compare with my SM and early M's.

I have a 51 that has a late replacement block. It may work and is a good engine.

How do the cam gears differ in a physical description? How can I spot one if I see it?

Anonymous-0 · Oct 19, 2010

I don't know a serial number break. The overall strength of the gear is better and they changed from right hand thread to left hand thread.

A power steering pump would run your power steering, but would not be adequate for a loader.

glennster · Oct 19, 2010

the later "good guy " gears are solid gears. the early gears have three holes cast in them around the outside of the center hub that goes on the crankshaft.

CenTex Farmall · Oct 19, 2010

Thanks, that helps out even further.

CenTex Farmall · Oct 19, 2010

Thanks. I plan on using a separate reservoir underneath the tank(propane).

CenTex Farmall · Oct 19, 2010

Ok, I thought is was later when they changed the threads. Good to know.

D Slater · Oct 19, 2010

M with engine serial # 228082 and higher, tractor serial # 238082 and higher (August 1950) used the same bolt pattern for mounting a IH pump like IH used on SM and others.
Not all of those covers had enough clearance for the hour meter drive gear snout on the pump shaft, if equiped.
Original IH cam gears have a number on them. Ones that end with D, worst. Ends with DA, better. Ends with DB, best. All original equipment gears had holes in them. If some aftermarket ones don't, that means you would have to install the gear on the cam after it was installed. D is thiner in the center than than other 2 gears. DA and DB look the same. DB has a center hole to give a tighter fit on the cam than DA does.
Cams with left hand threads came out in 1957. They were sold as replacement parts for M camshafts and can be found in some M tractors along with any of the gears. Cam gear 6760 DB cam out in 1955.
You can't depend on any model M tractor having a 6760 DA or DB cam gear.

CenTex Farmall · Oct 19, 2010

Thanks for typing all this out. Printer spitting out a copy now.

I love this place.

I do have that one M that has the later model replacement block, though I haven't been into enough to tell if it was just the block or the entire engine that was replaced. You helped me figure it out a while back. It decodes as having been cast in '57 and has the displacement (248) cast into the side. If that was at least a short block (If IH sold short blocks) then I'm guessing it also came with later internal stuff.

Thanks again!

mkirsch · Oct 20, 2010

A power steering pump is a bad idea, IMHO.

First off it's only 3 GPM. The distributor drive pump is 12 GPM. You will die of old age waiting for the loader to lift.

Second off, the belt will slip under heavy loads. Ever watched an older car make a sharp turn in a parking lot? "SCREEEEEEEEEEEEECH!" goes the power steering belt with the front wheels turned all the way to the lock. Same thing will happen with a bucket full of dirt because it will need all the pressure the power steering pump can muster and then some.

For power steering, use a power steering pump. For a snow plow lift/turn, use a power steering pump.

Wardner · Oct 20, 2010

mkirsch,

It doesn't really matter but I always thought the screeching was the relief valve. Anyway, two belts are better than one. Clutch pumps are better yet as they can be turned off and on. Kinda of expensive though if you buy new but cheaper than a new distributer pump. This setup did not require the cutting of the fan shroud as most belted pumps do.

CenTex Farmall · Oct 20, 2010

What kind of front end is that?

I thought about using a clutch pump but got a really good deal on the IH pump. This will be a dedicated loader tractor anyway so hydraulics will be used anytime it's fired up. I like the idea for a field tractor though.

CenTex Farmall · Oct 20, 2010

Well taken!

Wardner · Oct 20, 2010

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IH F-400 with IH front axle. The installation would be alot easier on a narrow front. I had to take care that the wishbone would not hit pump when axle is tilted to max. The track of the pump belts runs very close to the frame channel; about 1/8" clearance.

On the other hand, there might be tire clearance on a narrow front. Don't know because I haven't tried that.

Anonymous-0 · Oct 20, 2010

I dont think any M/SM would likely have updated gear with solid hub, (no 3 holes), camshaft with left hand threads, these actually came out in 400/450, are a direct replacement from IH, unless it had failed & owner installed new parts. 6760DB new part number gear, 368598R1 lht cam. I agree you wouldnt be happy with PS pump for main system, not enough volumn.

CenTex Farmall · Oct 22, 2010

I see now, the wishbone is shop built.

Judging from the pictures, I think you would have clearance for a NF. What would mess you up though is if you got into some mud. In a real mess (blackland soil anyway) they'll drag mud up all around and into the bolster and around bottom of the fan shroud and frame rails.

CenTex Farmall · Oct 22, 2010

I have one newer replacement engine in an M. It may or may not have updated parts. Haven't gotten into yet to see.

Wardner · Oct 22, 2010

(quoted from post at 11:22:33 10/22/10) I see now, the wishbone is shop built.

Judging from the pictures, I think you would have clearance for a NF. What would mess you up though is if you got into some mud. In a real mess (blackland soil anyway) they'll drag mud up all around and into the bolster and around bottom of the fan shroud and frame rails.

I didn't say anything about modifying the front end or wishbone. It is all IH.

D Slater · Oct 22, 2010

Don't remember any details about the engine block in previous post. Do know that all replacement engine blocks that I was inside with a cast # of 365586R1 and C248 on the side have a block bore size the same as C 264 and C281 engines. That is larger than regular M engines.
Posting pic of 2 cam gear numbers and a cam #.
Cam # is a original equipment on farmall 400 and part of the 450 tractors. Cam numbers that end with D came in M, SM tractors, already said what DA came in, DB was in about 2/3 of 450 tractors and used left hand thread on cam gear for gear retaining nut. You can see the cam gears have holes so the cam retaining bolts can be accessed through holes. Cam and gear can be removed and installed as a unit.
If there making a aftermarket cam gear or what CIH is selling without holes now, If someone knows the answer It would be appreciated?

D Slater · Oct 22, 2010

Cam # pic. I have no problem useing good condition DA parts in my tractors if needed.

CenTex Farmall · Oct 22, 2010

Thanks for posting these photos. I've put them in my "tractor" folder.

It's been a while since we talked about that block. You said that then about the core being different and that really got my attention.

Anonymous-0 · Oct 23, 2010

I am not sure whether it was a DB or DC, anyway the last cam gears I sold had solid completely machined web hub, looked pretty, IH was good at marking parts with casting numbers, when Case came along they werent as fussy.

D Slater · Oct 23, 2010

(quoted from post at 13:52:04 10/23/10) I am not sure whether it was a DB or DC, anyway the last cam gears I sold had solid completely machined web hub, looked pretty, IH was good at marking parts with casting numbers, when Case came along they werent as fussy.

Never bought a new gear since old IH stock one. What year did you last work in parts?
When IH started selling the 6760DB as a replacement part gear they sent out a bulliten stating thet the camshaft should be supported under the first bearing journal when installing. Because it was machined to have a tighter fit on the camshaft. Wonder what the story is for a gear without holes. No way to install gear on a cam like was recomended for 6760DB and then bolt cam in the engine?
This site shows a picture of the aftermarket gear they sell with holes. Case IH web site still shows gear as part # 6760DB. Don't know but wouldn't be suprised if what Case IH sells now is the same one some aftermarket places sell.
Thanks for any information.

Adding live hydraulic pump on plain M

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