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Farmall Super M valve guides

K

Keith LeMire

New User
I have a cyl head for a Farmall Super M in for a valve job, and when the machinist went to put the new guides in they fell thru the holes. Apparently the old guides are about .002" larger (.692") than the standard guides. So far I haven't found any evidence that there are oversize guides available. So what gives? Did IHC rework this head at the factory due to a casting flaw, machining error, etc., or were over size guides available at one time? Also, what's the remedy? I can nickel plate the guides to bring them up to .692 or I can try to modify a guide from something else. Any opinions?

Thanks

Keith
 

I am more inclined to think the new guides are not made according to specs. Did your machinist get them, or did they come out of a kit that you bought?
 

They came from a Tisco kit, but the machinist checked one of his catalogs, and said they are the correct diameter according to his book.
 
(quoted from post at 07:39:17 09/03/10)
They came from a Tisco kit, but the machinist checked one of his catalogs, and said they are the correct diameter according to his book.
Click to expand...

I believe the Tisco kits are very good, and your machinist confirmed the guides are the correct size, so maybe someone in years past modified the head to accept valve guides that were NOT the correct size?
at this point, I do not know the solution.
 
The plating would good, I would use copper if possible for the reason that it is more heat conductive, and the valve is cooled through the guide. I would also machine each guide for PC style oil control seals. (as used on virtually all modern engines.) Jim
 
i have seen them install what was available not really correct and machine to fit. also have seen old guides drilled out and new guides installed right in the old ones. its basically what works at the time, as some shops have guides on hand.your dealing with 50 & 60 yr. old stuff , and time is not spent looking for originality availability.
 

Jim, do you have an example (pic) of the oil seal modification to the guide? I am not very familiar with valve trains. I am assuming this modification will keep oil from going down the guides better than the originals? Does this require any new parts, and is this something the machine shop can do reasonably cheap?

Thanks,

Keith
 
my few cents worth is not to get to worried about the seals . i dont believe they had them when new. it is more critical on intake valves as they will suck oil in, ( which is good) for lubricating. the exhaust valves dont require them as compression is blown past them,in minute amounts.not telling what to do just giving info . as seals are good but nothing to loose sleep over on these old slow turning engines. i dont think you would even see a difference in oil consumption. jim is correct too, its your call.
 
I looked in my old valve guide books and it appears that Manley made a guide that was .375 ID. .692,.6922..694 OD. plain guide cut for seal various length from 2.815.---3.250 looks to fit Cat 3406 serial 92U1-UP (Old Companies history I think Melling ended up with this company. This is separate from Manley Racing.The Catalog I have is 2001. I also know Qual Cast & Precion Engine Parts can make your guides. I also noted there were several guides that were bigger on the od that you can machine down to the size you need. I hope this helps.If you need contacts Email me.Regards Earl In Illinois
 
don "t waste your money on stem seals. they didn"t need them when these tractors were new and they don"t need them now. as far as tisco being good quality they are alright if you are satisfied with chinese junk. a good machine shop will have no trouble finding you guides to fit your head.
 
Had a young mechanic doing a valve job on a 560 gas one time. He drove out the guides and mushroomed the driver so it made some of the bores in head larger. We reamed it out and found larger O.D. guides and put them in. Often wondered what the next guy would think when he came across this head. Far as valve seals, I am a real believer in them even on these old engines. What happens is as the rocker arm bushing and shaft wear a lot more oil is thrown on the valves and there fore you can get that smoking situation when you first start up. May not change overall oil consumption or then again it may. IH had two suppliers of rocker arms for the 4 and 560 gas engines.. The companny all of a sudden had some realy smokers , oil burners. Co. found out that one supplier was not pinching the oil groove on top of rocker arm down so valves were flooded with oil. Amazing how much oil can go through a guide even when they are new. Had to pull head to clean up all the carbon, If I remember correctly, I pinched the oil groove to specs, installed perfect circle valve seals and that tractor was fine for many, many years.
 
Been their done that,just have machine shop knurl outside diameter of valve guides.Had several done over the years,works great.Scott
 
A little creative engineering can solve this kind of stuff, as has been mentioned us a larger OD guide and cut it down, find a guide intended for something else that fits, etc. We do this all the time on our 427 Ford stuff, sometimes changing from 3/8 guides to 11/32 or even 5/16 for weight and airflow reasons, guides come in all shapes & sizes. Simplest seal to use is the Ford "umbrella" type that came in millions of engines at 11/32 and 3/8, very good oil control for cheap, and register on the valve stem so they still offer some control if the guide/ stem gets loose. Have to check if the seal will fit inside the valve spring, and if there's enough clearance between the retainer and top of the guide at full lift- sometimes a little trimming of the top of the guide will get you there. The Perfect Circle- type seals are a little more work to install, using a cutter that registers inside the guide and cuts the OD to size for the seal, and also cuts down the height of the top of the guide. They push on over the guide top and don't float with the stem, so if the clearance gets sloppy, the seals don't last long- the PC seals are really more for high-performance engines with double or triple valve springs that don't have much room inside for a seal, and the top of the seal is thinner for more retainer clearance at high lifts. The will work OK on a fresh engine with good stem/guide clearance, but aren't really meant for long-term "beater" engines
The 427's also have shaft rockers, and the sloppy shaft/ rocker fit problem really shows up with the high volume/pressure oil pumps we use, they will quickly fill up the valve covers faster than the oil can drain back, to the point of running the pan dry. We routinely use a Holley jet or similar in the passage to restrict the oil to the rockers even with fresh components when running big pressure & volume
 
(quoted from post at 08:07:07 09/04/10) A little creative engineering can solve this kind of stuff, as has been mentioned us a larger OD guide and cut it down, find a guide intended for something else that fits, etc. We do this all the time on our 427 Ford stuff, sometimes changing from 3/8 guides to 11/32 or even 5/16 for weight and airflow reasons, guides come in all shapes & sizes. Simplest seal to use is the Ford "umbrella" type that came in millions of engines at 11/32 and 3/8, very good oil control for cheap, and register on the valve stem so they still offer some control if the guide/ stem gets loose. Have to check if the seal will fit inside the valve spring, and if there's enough clearance between the retainer and top of the guide at full lift- sometimes a little trimming of the top of the guide will get you there. The Perfect Circle- type seals are a little more work to install, using a cutter that registers inside the guide and cuts the OD to size for the seal, and also cuts down the height of the top of the guide. They push on over the guide top and don't float with the stem, so if the clearance gets sloppy, the seals don't last long- the PC seals are really more for high-performance engines with double or triple valve springs that don't have much room inside for a seal, and the top of the seal is thinner for more retainer clearance at high lifts. The will work OK on a fresh engine with good stem/guide clearance, but aren't really meant for long-term "beater" engines
The 427's also have shaft rockers, and the sloppy shaft/ rocker fit problem really shows up with the high volume/pressure oil pumps we use, they will quickly fill up the valve covers faster than the oil can drain back, to the point of running the pan dry. We routinely use a Holley jet or similar in the passage to restrict the oil to the rockers even with fresh components when running big pressure & volume
Click to expand...


Thanks to all for the advice! I found some Cat valve guides that I can use.
 
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