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Painters...opinion needed.

D

Dave H (MI)

Well-known Member
I am about to give tractor painting a try using PPG paint with hardner added. I won't go into a lot of details except that the counter people (and this is a paint shop), when questioned pretty seriously, stood by the position that I could spray this material with a charcoal mask alone. Everything I have heard here said supplied air and I asked them about this. They said that the standard was supplied air but ONLY because the painters in the booths could not tell when their charcoal mask had given up the ghost and that, in fact, the mask would protect just fine if the filter were changed regularly. Seems like if this stuff is that dangerous I don't want to risk it getting around my mask somehow.
 
Speaking in general terms, supplied air is safer than a charcoal mask. It's positive pressure versus negative pressure. You need to make sure that any mask fits you well and makes a complete seal around your mouth and nose (including being clean shaven). Put the mask on, cover the inlet ports, and the mask should seal tight to your face and not let any air in when you try and breathe.

That being said, you need to do your homework and make sure your mask has the correct cartridges to filter out the bad stuff.
 
I recently sprayed PPG paint + hardener using new respirator cartridge filters rated for NIOSH TC-23C-49 (organic vapor). Sprayed in a well-ventilated, open shed with excellent natural airflow. And I stayed upwind while spraying.

All went well - both the paint application and my health. HOWEVER given the choice I'd use a supplied air respirator were I to do it again - that hardener is downright nasty stuff.
 
I'm with Wilks. For a shop (or a painter) with lots of painting going on all the time, supplied air is the way to go.

For small occasional jobs (like a tractor) I've relied on the 3M half masks with replaceable cartridges. Some would argue the point (they know who they are) but I don't think I've lost any brain cells to my occasional tractor painting. ;8^)

The keys are 1) a supply of cartridges suitable for the materials and 2) a good fit on the mask (i.e., Wilks's suction test).

They're available at most NAPAs. As for durability . . . when I painted the BN, I changed out the filters for about every 4-6 hours of actually being enclosed and shooting paint, well before the outer fiber filter showed any sign of being clogged or covered over. The stuff that can hurt you isn't visible, but it is in direct proportion to the amount of paint.

As for fit and anything leaking around, a good shave IS important, and I can say that (after checking for FIT and SEAL -- EVERY time I put it on) I've never had so much as a whiff of paint while wearing it. My painting coveralls, on the other hand, would reek, when I stepped outside the shop between coats. A month after being painted, the tractor smelled more like new paint than anything I ever/never detected while wearing the filter mask.
 
For occasional use a half mask respirator is fine. The trick to them is air exposure. Once you pull the seals off the cartridges they start to deteriorate. In our annual OSHA course the instructor said to get big ziplock bag and put the respirator in it and suck out as much air as possible. He said after the filters are exposed to open air for a few weeks they just turn into a big dust mask. The filter media reacts with the oxygen. Unless you are super sensitive you won't get sick from one paint job. I get silicone half masks from northern safety. I have a beard and it still seals real good.
 
I attended the estate auction a couple years ago of a guy in his early forties who was spraying out in his shop with that stuff. He made it to his living room from the shop before he died. Apparently used a mask but it was a hot and humid day and he took it off when he finished spraying. It works about like ammonia and chlorine, just eats up your lungs and you suffocate.

The damage is irreversible. Living with carrying an oxygen bottle with me for the rest of my life doesn't sound like fun either if just a little whiff gets by the mask.

The use of a hardener just to make the paint a little tougher for a tractor isn't worth the risk to me. They have been using clear coat on cars for years. That's good enough for me. I prefer the less risky things in life like skydiving and fixing air compressor tanks with JB weld. Then again I wouldn't use a torch to cut the top off of an oil drum but apparently there are those that do. To each his own.

Check the archives and particularly on the paint forum. There are plenty of nice paint jobs without the stuff. IH didn't use it when the tractor was built.

Good luck.
 
catalyized paints are nasty stuff. wether you use a respirator or not, you make the call. the effects are cumulative. you may shoot it a hundred times and not have a problem, or shoot it once and have a violent reaction. you should also be wearing a paint suit, hood and nitrile disposable gloves. the chemicals are readily absorbed in your skin. even lacquer thinner will sho up in the bloodstream within a few minutes of exposure.
 
Thanks for the replies! I GREATLY appreciate the concern for my welfare and know for certain now what makes me comfortable. I will either skip the hardner or figure out a way to get supplied air equipment. Just not worth it to me to take the risk. I have six tractors that can use some paint and a lot of implements I would like to spruce up. Spread the cost over those and consider the health risk...cheap. Thank you all again.
 
Dave H (MI); Do I have to send Wardner from MA to give YOU a piece of my mind also? Are you painting a Mona Lisa, trailer queen or a tractor? If you are goin' ta paint it w/hardner I hope you rethink the idea of doing it w/a respirator. Get you some supplied air. Life is too short the way it is. I think you need a good tractor ride to clear your head and think about where you are going to get a positive pressure, supplied air system. Tell ya what, you buy it and send it by the Badger Ferry over yonder to Wisc. so I can use it when you are done 8^). Enjoy your day folks.
 
Geez Al,

You just can't keep giving it away like that. Save some for our elected representatives when we drop into a double-dip recession.
 
You may be able to rent one. I skipped the hardener on this. Hal
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No...he is sending it the right way. We ARE in a double dip depression here. One of the reasons I have six outta seven tractors humming along is because there is nothing else to do. Let me be VERY clear...not that we don't want to do something. Business has dried up or left. Two consolations...I saved like a ess-oh-bee for 20 years and secondly, the boomerang from this is likely to be highly profitable. I'll forward it to outgoing Governor Granholm, may she rot....

Thanks Al, your concern is heart felt. I been shopping and this puppy costs less than half of my monthly Blue Cross:
Gasp here.
 
I thought of the rental center but I haven't called them yet to get a price. Only reason I been thinkin hardner is that I play with the darn things so much.
 
I'm glad the word is getting out about hardener. I have been recommending supplied air for 9 years on the paint and bodywork forum site and occasionally on this one. Another thing. If you are lucky enough to have a building to paint in, and paint often enough to to justify the cost, put a couple of explosion proof exhaust fans in the wall and try to paint near the fans. This way the building gets evacuated, making the air cleaner both when you are painting and after you are done. The fumes don't linger as long. Also, don't feel safe if you paint outside. The fumes swirl around you, the direction of the wind does little good. If you don't believe that, take a can of oven cleaner outside and spray it, you WILL smell the stuff. Thus spraying isocyanates (main ingredient in hardener) outside won't help much. As to recommendations from paint salesman, they do what their boss tells them -- that is, sell product. Ignore them and do your own research.
 
Isocyanates have no odor, so not smelling anything doesn't matter much. 4-6 hours is WAY to long for a charcoal mask to protect you against Iso's. The problem with charcoal masks is that you can't tell when the cartridges need to be changed. You can use your charcoal mask for all one part paints, or epoxy primer, the catalyst of most do not contain iso's. Urethane paints and primers require hardener. For acrylic and alkyd enamels hardener is and option, but just as dangerous. Charcoal masks can be labeled for Iso's only if you have a way to monitor the concentration in the air and/or have a cartridge changing schedule. You must also have an approved paint booth, something that very few hobbiests have. Painting without supplied air while using hardener is simply not a good idea. As stated, the effects are cumulative, and you do not know when the Iso's are going to cause problems. But, at least for hobbiests it is their decision.
 
Hey folks ... don't jump on me for asking ... I'm new to tractor work ... am doing my first restoration right now. What are the risks of spraying out of doors with a hardware store variety fiber mask? I'm using IH/Case paints enamel/primer right out of the can .. and rattle cans as well. When I read about dissolving my lungs (w/hardener) I thought I'd write. I'm not doing anything fancy ... just straight IH paints out of the can. Thanks.
 
"Ignore them and do your own research."

Believe me when I tell you that I all but called this person a liar. I have read your posts in the past on this topic so I thought I would run it up the forum one more time and see what happened. Personally, I think this is a topic that bears repeating periodically. Appreciate the benefit of your experience!
 
"What are the risks of spraying out of doors with a hardware store variety fiber mask? "

Read CNKS posts on this thread. Don't risk it would be my opinion.
 
You mean the "surgical" or dust masks? Dont't even think about it. It keeps the particulates out of your nose/lungs, sort of. Absolutely no fume protection.
 
I have a local salesman, who is quite knowledgeable about what he sells. But, I told him a charcoal mask would not work, and he was surprised -- because his older boss in their other store says, "that's what we have always used". Meaning the 70's or early 80's when urethane was just catching on, before people, maybe even the paint companies, knew any better.
 
"They have been using clear coat on cars for years. That's good enough for me."
I am not an expert on clear but the PPG version I use has to have hardener, the base coat doesn't. In the early-mid 80's GM and probably others used acrylic lacquer and clear coat, doubt if it had hardener. My 81 Monte Carlo had the worst paint I have ever seen.
 
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