My brother-inlaw has I believe a 560 IH gas tractor that wont run under a load, it will idle, and run but you start cutting hay and it,ll start missing , sputter, and finally die, it starts right up will go perfect with no load then kick in the pto and puuuu; he replaced the plugs, points, condenser, coil, and everything related to fire, he said the gas runs out good to the carb and nothing in the tank to resrict the flow ; any ideas ??
- Thread starter DougG
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the tractor vet
Well-known Member
First off open the main fuel screw to five turns off the seat. Next check ing. timing at full throttle and set to factory spec.'s next put some real gas in it as if ya want to use a I H gasser then i am telling you from experience here ya have to run nothing less then 93 octane and that is the vary bottom line . Oh one other thing here make sure that you have a full stream of fuel flow from the tank to the carb. Do not use a inline fuel filter as all ya need is the screen in the sediment bowl . What is happening here is he is running 87 octane gas and it is pre igniting and super heating as it burns to fast and way to hot . Also drop down to the D15Y's ( i myself do not like the Champion plugs ) A C86 AC works well and so do the Auto lites and Motor Crafts in that heat range. The pistons are super heating and swelling and she is really tryen to seize . Now if there is no damage already done he should be ok , but if it did start to seize then you will be lucky if you can just lightly hone and rering . Worse case she will need a sleeve kit .
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I have not had much experience working on a 560 however I do know quite a bit about mechanical engine operation and theory and have never seen nor heard of an engine stalling from pre-ignition (unless it caused a failure of some sort)... Try not to over think the problem right out of the box. Start with the least intrusive diagnosis first and work you way up from there. I would have started off the same way you did with the tune up, plugs, wires, cap, rotor, coil, condenser. After that like the vet said look at you fuel flow. A quick check to see if it may be a fuel or air problem pull the choke out when the engine is in the process of stalling. If the RPM's come back up that's most likely where you problem lies. From there I would start looking at the carb, maybe a good carb kit, cleaning and adjustment. Check the govenor for proper operation and adjustment. After that I would look into the base engine, compression, valve springs, etc. Good luck! Matt
My IH 574 gas I bought new has always had the cheapest gas I could buy put in it - The only power problems I've had over the years have come from plugged fuel screens, points once, and several years ago I had to adjust the valves. There's no way I'd pay an extra 25 cents/gal for gas.
Matt, respectfully you have never had experience with IHC 6 cylinder gassers. I have a 706 gas, same engine as the 560. If the gas has to low octane rating or you timing is off or you have to hot heat range on the spark plugs they will do EXACTLY what DougG brother-inlaw's is doing. When they get warmed up under a load they will start to miss, smoke and if you don't remove the load stall. If you keep running them and don't correct the problem they will score sleeves and yes seize. Back in the day gasoline was of much higher quality than it is today. Very touchy problematic engine. IH should have designed a heavy duty gas engine for their tractors from scratch instead cobbling a pickup engine from their truck division.
the tractor vet
Well-known Member
Ya know MIKEY i have a lot of years FIXEN you know it all's screw ups . And IF you were smart enough to read the MINIM FUEL REQUIREMENTS for SAID engine then you would be running the correct fuel in it . But you bought a tractor and NEVER got the BOOK with it but you know everything about it and what grade gas to buy . And i am so tired of sayen this that gas back when that 560 was new the gas on the farm was more in the 93 to 95 octane level But hey i only know how to fix .
the tractor vet
Well-known Member
I will have to agree with ya on that. Like they could have used 7 main bearings in them and made a few more cubes added in a cross flow head .
Are all IH gas engines from that era as sensitive about the gas octane?
I don't know what octane Dad ran in his 460, but then he passed away in '84 and maybe the farm gas was better then. Also my 240U is the same age (1958) and should I be adding an octane booster to it or maybe using the same 91 octane we use in the car? (I do have an owners manual for it, but I seem to have mis-placed it for now.)
Another dumb question... can the timing be changed enough to allow for the lower octane?
I don't know what octane Dad ran in his 460, but then he passed away in '84 and maybe the farm gas was better then. Also my 240U is the same age (1958) and should I be adding an octane booster to it or maybe using the same 91 octane we use in the car? (I do have an owners manual for it, but I seem to have mis-placed it for now.)
Another dumb question... can the timing be changed enough to allow for the lower octane?
Ya know my Dad keeps about 30 of those old IH gassers running, and if your melting pistons down and having spark plug problems, then its the mechanic fixing them that is screwing up. My Dad has never seen a piston melt down due to low octane gas, it is usually a timing issue. There are alot of IH gasser running hard in this area, and they run 87 octane gas with no problems. I run a Farmall 450 on our feed mill, I grind two loads of corn a day everyday with it. It gets the living s##t worked out of it and I have no problems. It has 57 hp at the dyno. Firecrater pistons and the jet has been drilled out on it. I will give you that gas was better back 30 years or more but the new gas isnt causing any problems around here. You said once with the new gas the tractor will run 30-30 degrees hotter. Mine run right at 185-190 degrees. So does that mean yours will run at around 165 degrees?
Your not as smart as you claim to be, or My Dad being a 55 year mechanic is missing something
Your not as smart as you claim to be, or My Dad being a 55 year mechanic is missing something
the tractor vet
Well-known Member
Yea i will agree on that as i have had many I H gassers over the years , the only one that i plum hated was a Farmall 460 gasser S/N 571 narrow ft. fast hitch , hated that tractor . But i learned a lot while owning it . It was one of the two tractors that started during the blizzard or 77
the tractor vet
Well-known Member
You can GET BY on a 450 but ya ain't going to on a 460-806 and yes i am that good a mechanic. and i do not have 55 years but 50 years of wrenchen and a lot of race engine building under my belt . And like i said READ the org. Operator manual for fuel requirements. And LEARN about the modern fuels. Gas started to change in 74 and octane levels started to drop Gas powered tractors went out of production . And if ya never saw a piston melt then you have not been around many engines that WORK. And if you are not open enough to try something that i have been over and over for years then your one of them know it alls . As for me i am still learning . And we around here still run I H gassers each and everyday and if spending a little extra to keep them going then that is what we do . Plus the fact that when these engines were new fro THE factory they HAD forged pistons in them and not we get cast pistons to rebuild them with and even in your 450 you do not have a cast piston anymore. and the cast piston will not handle heat like a Forged one will . as to the ing. timing i know how to set timing and i am one of the OLD FARTS that can STILL us a dist strobe to check and redo a timing curve as i wish i had a five dollar bill for all the dist. that over the years that i have worked on to rebuilt to factory spec. or tweak then for racing . The hours that was spent building and dyno testing engines for racing and Gee for some reason the ones i built for some reason seemed to do well . And the engines that i have put together for the few good friends to go play tractor pulling with for some reason have all been winners . But ya know i have been on here for how many years now HELPING people with there problems FOR FREE and sharing my knowledge FRO FREE then we get people like you that try and tell people that well you don't need that then YOU go and try and make it work for them . I made a decent living fixen tractors for a long time for people And like i keep telling people the gas of today is NOT the gas when the tractors were built new. So if you doubt my work the try and run ANY car, truck or tractor made back then and make it run and do what you expect it to to on the gas of today . Case in point try and make a say 68 Ford galaxy with lest say a 390 2bbl Reg fuel run on the what we call reg fuel today and see what happens or oh what about the same car with the 390 Prem fuel 2 bbl or what about a 65 mustang with a 289 4bbl . Oh wait why did ya have to run prem fuel in a 391 HD ford truck motor or what about the 534or 549's or the old 57 Macks with the 6 cylinder Thermodines??? . and have you ever had a lab test the gas to see how it burns and how EXTRA HOT it burns today . No i don't figure that you would pay the money out to find out as to WHY pistons melt or swell .025-.026 above the top ring and guild to the sleeves . Why does a 225 slant six Chrysler engine in a Massey 300 run 20-40 degrees hotter on 87 then it does on 93 ???? when everything is set where it is suppose to be ???? . what i am good at i am vary good at . I know my older Mo pars and my older Ford and i know my I H tractors up to the 88 series . yes it costs us 40 more for 200 gallon of 93 over the 87 BUT we do not have problems when running the Min. fuel requirements for that tractor . IF we could get 95 then we would be running that and i could PUSH the engine a bit more But i feel that getting a good 87 horse out of a C291 is good enough we will leave it at that.
Mr. vet. For those of us that have been around this board for a long time, we know that you have been around the block a few times and know more about fixing more IH tractors then all of us. Dont mind punks like this that want to be a troll and start a "who can wrench better" argument over the net. just walk away and give your advise to those of us who want it
the tractor vet
Well-known Member
I got a burr up my rear end one day while at a tractor pull with my 450 D as i end up in third place getting knocked out of 1st by a souped up 1206 and a 4020 with a turbo on it and they only got me by 6 and 8 inches and i made a comment that i should just sell the darn thing and get something better to run with the big dog. Well a guy from over in Pa was impressed with the way the 450 D did run and he said HOW MUCH and i threw a price at him and he shocked me by sayen that he would take it and layed five hundred bucks in my hand wright there and would have the other 2500 when i brought it to him . SOOOOo i went on the hunt for a tractor and found the 460 , well it SHOULD be equal to the 450 , boy was i wrong . Yea it would pull my I H 540 4x14 semi mounts in second but i could no longer get two days out of a tank of fuel . And it sure was not the 450 at the track as we were now sucking hind teet at the back of the class. Even after a lot of tryen it was no way a third of the 450 . And ownen a 460 is like ownen a boat , there are two days that you are happy ownen one the day ya bought it and the day some fool came to get it. The next one was a 706 gasser with a 291 and OH my she had the weight she had the power and used a lot less gas. The 540 semi mounts gave way to 710 4x16 and the old 37 10.6 disc gave way to a 370 13.6 disc. Nomore second gear plowing and keeping the local gas station living the high life I could plow all day on one tank and plow at 5-5.5 MPH Did not have to hang weights on her most times other then three donuts on the land side .and about 600 on the nose . And yes even back then i ran high test in them . there are times now that i would like to find a late model 706 gasser to go with my 806 diesel. and maybe just maybe a 1206 . Heck they can even be real rags i think i can make something out of them , Oh wait all my tractors have been rags out of dead rows at sales . Just like my one buddy's 706 gasser that we brought back from the grave and it became the most hated tractor at the dead weight pulls.Never lost a pull in all the years he pulled it . His wife told him he had to quiet pulling because she was running out of places to put all the trophies . And that 706 gasser came from Stilesville Auctions out of the dead row.
John M
Well-known Member
- Location
- Nunyafn business
Dont do any good to argue with him, hes always going to be right, even when you prove him wrong. I learned that a long time ago when I proved him wrong and then he boasted about his trophies on the mantle and told me to shut up and mind my own business or something to that effect. The original poster emailed and asked me if I thought TV was a drunk or something!
the tractor vet
Well-known Member
I will agree with ya on that one as they will hang in there longer on the pull due to the longer stroke .
the tractor vet
Well-known Member
That is what we get out of my buddy's at 540 and i would say that is pretty good being stock with only decking the block to dress it up and .012 off the head to clean it up . as it was a C263 to start with and we up dated it to the C291 . It is the tractor that gets the most use . I had some pictures of it on Tales a week ago .
the tractor vet
Well-known Member
Like i said try and run a engine from back then on the fuel of today . It does not work out . And again try and run lest say a 1970 429 ford bone stock on the best pump gas today with the stock settings . But you know more then me so i will shut up .
Another dumb question... can the timing be changed enough to allow for the lower octane?
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Actually that should be the first question asked of people that claim "low octane fuel" is the problem. Advancing the timing too much (or just plain having it wrong) causes the same problems some here attributed to low octane.
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Actually that should be the first question asked of people that claim "low octane fuel" is the problem. Advancing the timing too much (or just plain having it wrong) causes the same problems some here attributed to low octane.
Well, I never did really get an answer on that one before. I don't pull my 240U hard at all, just use it with a loader and rear blade... don't even have a mower any more. For what I do, it starts and runs fine, but if I ever do use it hard I may go to 91, the highest pump gas here. Matter of fact, I may just go blade my driveway after it cools down this evening, or IF it cools down... it's 100 right now.
Larry B 1486
Member
I really hate to step in but I know you can get more than 87 hp out of a 291. Dads uncle had a late 706 with a gas 291 and after the last overhaul they had it dyno at 95hp
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