Need some Red Tractor Advice to start baling

I am going to start some baling this year. Never done it before in my life but have an old friend who has. He used 856 diesel tractors and a Vermeer disc mower and 605H roller (bigger equip than I think I need). I was buying hay from him but he retired and sold his equipment. Quality of the hay since then is not as good and it is expensive. I think I can do better myself. I want to do more farming as a break from my day job (31 years in the computer business) so looking forward to some tractor seat time.

I will have access to around 65 acres of grass (5 acre field, 2 10ac fields and a 30-40ac field). I plan to meet my own needs for cattle/horse hay, as well as sell to a few of my horse friends to help pay for maint on the equip.

I have a Ford 2000 3cyl (32ish hp) and a Gehl 2175 haybine. I plan to pick up a reasonably priced 3 point side delivery rake and a 4x5 roller. I know that these implements, if they work at all on this tractor will pull the guts out of it eventually so I will need a bigger tractor pretty soon and just use the ford for raking.

So I was looking at the bigger 4000 model ford 3cyl's. They seem to sell a bit too high for my budget. I want to spend around $2500-$3500 for a good 50-60 hp gas tractor with 2 remotes and live PTO.

I am being lured to the red side.

I see what looks like good 400 and 450 class gas tractors all the time in the $1500-$2500 range. I see the 460 and 560 class gas tractors around $2500-$3500. Real nice looking 560 diesel in the Photo ads that is not too far away for $3500. I also see that the 706 gas tractors are in my price range. One sold in good shape south of me for $2850 recently.

I think gas will work out fine for me for my small needs but not opposed to a diesel if one comes along in good shape.

So, given my goals, what would you do? I need your biased opinions. don't want to spend too much if a 400/450 will fit the bill. Are there factors to consider such as rebuild costs? Durability?

John

this one is interesting

http://springfieldil.craigslist.org/grd/1567398404.html

Am I reading this correctly? You want to buy a $3000 tractor to mow and bale 280 tons of hay per year? About 22K worth of hay?
When hay is ready to harvest you have a 5 day window to get it all done. You can't afford to have mechanical breakdown with hay on the ground.
Spend the money on an 86 or at least a 66 series diesel. You can find nice OS 966's for about ^K or less. Or start saving and keep buying hay for a few more years. Leave the antiques for yard work and parades.

Gordo

Thanks Gordo. That is exactly the input I am needing. I don't have to bale it all, may only bale the closer 5ac and 2 10ac fields to start - enough to meet my needs and sell a little.

So you would advise me to forget the antiques and maybe me cut/rake it with what I have got, get a local guy to roll it for me in a day and save for a real work tractor (like my friend's 856 diesels) before doing the rolling myself?

Had not thought of that.

Any other opinions folks?

John

Hogleg, I hayed 140 acres, three cuts a year for several years with a 656 diesel,t.a delete, straight five speed. nine foot new holland mower, side delivery rake, krone 4x4 round baler. I baled green hay and wrapped it. The 656 never had a problem, more then enough horses. IMHO fifty pto horse would do ya, but independent pto is a must. Hayed for years as a kid on the home farm with an H and fourtyfive baler, and non-independant pto just does"t work.

As we all know, weather determins when you make hay. Throw in equipment break downs, available time, available help and you end up with less than what you need.
I work a regular job, afternoon shifts, so I cut only as much hay as I can do with my available time. My Super H cuts the hay with a NH 479 haybine. I rake with A Farmall 560D or a IH 444D as these are the only tractors I have with dual remotes for my V rake. The 560D runs the NH 650 auto wrap. The 560 is a little short on hydralics for the 650 tho.
Your money will determine how much tractor you can get.Later model tractors have better hydralics live pto and will still hold their value. Something in the 60+ HP would be better. If you find a deal on a IH 241 OR 2400 round baler -- RUN AWAY AS FAST AS YOU CAN.

Leon - Can you explain this further? Is this a hydraulic pressure issue or num of ports on the 560 running the 650?

I think I need 2 ports and live pto. Planning on a Vermeer 504F/G/H for the roller. One needs 1 port, others need 2 depending on twine tie options. Which of the models we have talked about have that ? 400/450, 460/560, 706?

Sounds more and more like an 06 or 56 series is the bottom floor here, heh?

John

Just for what it's worth,

Get the biggest, baddest tractor and baler that you can afford.

Those tiny little bales are gonna get real old, real, real fast. Like in about 20 minutes.

Allan

Just for what it's worth,

Get the biggest, baddest tractor and baler that you can afford.

Those tiny little bales are gonna get real old, real, real fast. Like in about 20 minutes.

Allan

I understand what you are saying Allan. Most of my horse friends prefer small squares. They can also use small rounds if not too heavy. Big rounds of 5x6 just don't sell to these folks, too hard to move around. I think the sweet spot is around 800-1000 lbs per bale, can sell at a premium per lb compared to 5x6 bales but not have to handle 1000's of small bales. It is a tradeoff for sure. My retired buddy is trying to get me to buy his 605H and just roll 5x4's for the horses instead of 4x5's. May go that way.

I have heard that the state cops are getting picky on loads of 5x6's due to width. That was the other reason for considering 4x5's.

John

Where can you find a good usable 966 for $6000?

You want to buy a good reliable tractor, not a piece of junk. For $6000, you're going to get a tired old hunk of metal that needs a bunch of work.

I'm sure there's an insane person selling his perfectly fine 966 for $6000, but they're far and few between, and the tractors don't stay on the market long. There's no guarantee that you'll be able to find one of these nutcases by the time the hay needs cutting.

Be aware that the 6-cylinder IH gassers are very finicky. They need the high-test fuel, and they burn a LOT of it. No skimping on the fuel, or you WILL burn through a piston. Tractor Vet says there is no way around it. Either run the high-test, or learn how to rebuild engines...

If I were going to buy a 6-cylinder gasser, it would be for the collection, not to work. Maybe run a few rounds at a plow day, or for plowing my driveway in the winter, but not for baling 60-odd acres of hay.

Allen if I could find a good stack mover I'd sell my baler in a heartbeat and go back to putting up stacked hay. Get rid of that machine expence. Balers and swathers are built to self-destruct.

ya know everybody whines about the amount of gas that they burn in A DAY , How much gas ya going to run thru in a ten hour day in your pickup on the road pulling a trailer ??? BTDT and let me tell you it is a lot more then a 706 or a 756 will suck up in a day . Now if ya take the tax off the gas at the end of a year ya can run then for less then a diesel tractor on haying work IF it is tuned up wright and set correctly , if not then yea they will burn gas. keep in mind that my buddy and i run 706 gassers and we do put them to WORK i can mow rake twice and move bales on 28 acres on one tank . IF that piece of junk 1219 Deere hay bine would let you mow in 4th low insead of 3 low we would use less gason 28 acres . Oh and BTW this is not on a pool table flat ground either and this field is not for the novice to make hay on either . So pulling a 9 foot haybine up the hill will make it work hard and to keep her going straight takes a bit of left brake since she is trying to lift the ft. end off the ground with 600 lbs on the nose . IF ya want to farm with a Fuel sipping tractor then ya had best get a David Brown or something that ya park facing east at night and bow three time at sun rise before starting .

OK I guess I'd better put in my two cents worth.

I live in OK where prairie grass gets 1-1/2 ton per year and you only cut once. 65 acres could be handled pretty easily with a good 400 or 450. I use an M on a NH 479 and a 405 Super G. It's a little short on hp but we make about 600 round bales per year. I've got a 450D in the shop which ought to bale this summer.

The antiques are fun to run and easy to make money with because you aren't paying a mortgage. I keep a separate tractor on each implement but we really don't have tractor trouble, just implement breakdowns. The old tractors get pretty reliable when you use them and don't let old gas sit in them for two or three years. On a new tractor I always put an inline filter in the gas line to keep the crap out of the carb (I know the inline filters won't work on a gravity system but I do it anyway).

I'm just now doing my taxes and we spent $1,100 on tractor gas in 2009 including winter feeding so I'm thinking I can't save more than $1,100 on a new efficient solar powered tractor that uses no fuel at all and I spent $0 on maintenance except for oil, filters, and one flat tire. No spark plugs, points, condenser, carburetor kit etc. last year. So if I buy a diesel that saves half my fuel I'll probably wind up needing a $2,000 injector pump or a $1,500 hydraulic pump before I've used it two years, or I'll buy a new one and spend $550 (my total savings) on interest every year. Guess the M's will have to put another 2% on their life next year.

I have a 7220 Magnum and a 956 deere discbine 15 ft cut and I can cut 15 acres per hour. That is an acre every 4 minutes. I use alot less fuel than you do to cut hay per acre and alot less to rake either. I use a 16 wheel rake at about 8 mph. I could cut your field in two hours lol. You never stated how big your tank is..... I could drive a 2000 miles with a diesel truck if my tank was bigger. You never stated how much fuel per acre or hour you burn. I can cut 175 acres in a good day. How about you???? How about a gas 856 vs a diesel 856 we used have both and the gas was always out of fuel.Maybe a 706 is a different story. We used to pull a NH 489 with a farmall 450 and you did good to get 5 acres an hour and it burned about 2 gallons per hour. I think I am more efficent that you per acre. Plus I have A/C, powershift and air ride seat.

The tank on a 706 is somewhere between 30 and 35 gal.

You say the hay isn't of good quality and you think you can do better yourself. Keep in mind, hay doesn't just grow. The land has got to be worked and hay has to be re-seeded, just about every 5 to 7 years depending on quality and yield. That is why hay cost so much.

Gas Versus Diesel - On a small engine a gas engine might be just fine but when you get to the bigger ones it just does not work out. For instance and 856 Gas versus an 856 diesel. An 856 Diesel with the 407 will have more horsepower and use less fuel per hour than an 856 gas regardless of how well they are tuned. Look at cars. The same model car with a gas engine always pales compared to the same model car with a diesel engine for mileage.

The 560D is an early 1960 s tractor. I H still had low gallons per minute pumps on them, about 5 gpm. The baler is set up for higher gpm s. The issue is when the baler is empty I cannot open the rear gate all the way only about 3/4 open. With a bale there is no problem. This baler has only 2 hydrelic lines. The twine wraps automaticly with no electric or hydralic lines.I have had this baler for 2 years and am very satified.

Hogleg, first things first you are looking to bale about 65 acres of hay. Didn't see but are you planning to make multiple cuttings or just one? 65 acres if it's any sorta decent ground is gonna net you about 60-75 bales an acre. really good fields can net you 100+ but it takes work to get fields in that kinda shape. So just some rough figuring you will be baling about 4500 bales on just one cutting. Second cutting often is about 1/3 to 1/4 of quantity of the first cutting but generally it's much better hay. I wouldn't get too wrapped around the PTO about which tractor to use. Keep your 3000 and run it on the rake/haybine, or if you get one the tedder. You can run MOST small square balers with the 3000 OK as long as you aren't pulling wagons etc. But honestly a good 45+ hp tractor should do it ok. You could use an M or super M and do it but like others said the live PTO and hydraulics will make life easier. I grew up running a New Holland baler on a Farmall M and the baler also had a thrower on it. You can do it but you gotta be good at doing the double clutch two step to knock the tractor outta get and keep the power to the baler so it doesn't plug up. Look at what you projected budget is and go from there. Getting a good 400-450 for relatively cheap shouldn't be an issue and to be honest, if you are looking to possibly round bale and only look to run a 4x4 or possibly a 4x5 then a 400-450 should do it. They are alittle thirsty, but that's why I'd keep the 3000 around. My dad still has the old M but also has a 450. The 450 is way more tractor than the M is but it also consumes almost double what the M consumes it seems. Not to mention our 450 is just as thirsty whether you are working the snot outta it or pulling a hay rake. From growing up on a farm and working with the equipment way more than I care to admit I can say one thing. Being you are doing this as a hobby more than anything spend most of your time and energy getting good impliments. Other than a round baler your 3000 could run just about any square baler but dealing with baler which the knotters won't tie because they are plum wore out or dealing with a repair links on the drivechain on a haybine because the shaft which the sprocket is mounted to is bent is way more agrivating and time consuming than dealing with an older tractor. Like I said a tractor has an issue you can just swap em around, the baler breaks your kinda in a tough spot. And don't assume nothing will break because you'll be sadly mistaken. Assume everything is going to break and you'll be much better off.

(quoted from post at 19:23:15 02/04/10) You say the hay isn't of good quality and you think you can do better yourself. Keep in mind, hay doesn't just grow. The land has got to be worked and hay has to be re-seeded, just about every 5 to 7 years depending on quality and yield. That is why hay cost so much.

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hat is an excellent point Randy.

Tractor vet, how does owning a David Brown make you a terrorist? That's what you're implying with the "face east" comment, isn't it? Boy, that's a new one, especially since David Brown was a BRITISH company that was eventually sold to Case.

Crumpet-eater, okay. Terrorist? I don't get it.

Anyway, the 756 would go through a tank of gas in about 6 hours when you worked it. Nowadays, that would be the good stuff, about 30 gallons at a little over $3 a gallon.

You can get the taxes back, but only if you're a REAL farm. I don't know if a guy who owns a couple of old tractors and makes a little hay off some rented land can call his operation a farm in the eyes of the government...

I don't think there would be a problem calling it a farm in the eyes of the government because you will be selling most of the crop... assuming you don't have about 100 horses. (And then you certainly have a farm.)
However, doing your income taxes becomes much more complicated if you are a farm. If all you are concerned about is the quality of the hay, I'd be searching around for a better supplier.

(quoted from post at 17:13:03 02/04/10)We used to pull a NH 489 with a farmall 450 and you did good to get 5 acres an hour and it burned about 2 gallons per hour.

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ow, 2 gallons an hour in your 450 that isn't much. I think the M uses about that. I think my dad's 450 is close to 4

kossuth,

I think you hit it right on the head. I am not trying to bale the most efficiently or fastest. I need to reliably bale a few fields to meet my needs first and maybe sell a bit of the excess to some horse friends. The fields are high quality horse hay that will be maintained. I will focus very closely on the implements and set the tractor issue aside for a while. Thank you very much for your shared wisdom. I really like the way my 2000 sips fuel and plan to use it for most of the prep. Heck, my wife even said she would like to rake the hay. She really likes driving the 2000.

Part of the problem is that I really like the old iron, but can't quite justifying buying it and not using it. I own a diesel pickup and I know how expensive repairs can get. I think a reasonably good gas tractor, used just for the baling will work well. Finding that older tractor that is not worn out will be the challenge. My 2000 has 5000 hours on it but was rebuild by the dealer prior to me buying it. It really runs nice!

John

I like the red tractors, but I also like my ford 5600 diesel good all around chore tractor.