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Super A Thermosyphon - Is it working?

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Jimps

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I have a 1949 Super A with a thermosyphon system. I replaced the water temperature sensor on it last summer, and recently had the radiator serviced (neck was leaking). I noticed last summer and even recently that my new temperature gauge does not move. Stays below cool, even when plowing a small 1/2 acre field. I pulled the cap and ran it at half throttle for 30 minutes after I refilled the radiator. The coolant level would rise up to the overflow and dropped probably 2 or 3 cups of fluid. The fluid level seemed to level out somewhat since it stopped overflowing and would just rise up to the edge of the overflow and then "burp" bubbles and drop back down.

I think I may have a blockage somewhere in the block. Otherwise the coolant should circulate so the hot fluid would hit the sensor. Also, after running for 30 minutes, I put my finger on the lower inlet cast iron and it was cool. How can I test the thermosyphon system and what's the best way to flush it out?

Jimps in GA.
 
the thermosyphon is a slow gradual process , and you cant really see the water circ.its not like a water pump that you can see the fluid moving.if your burping bubbles you may have compression in the cooling system.if its not running hot thats a good thing.they usually run hotter than a water pump equiped unit.the lower rad should be cooler than the top of rad.
 
Where is your probe? It could be in the upper outlet from the head to the radiator, but is more commonly in the lower inlet to the block.

If in that lower position, it will take a lot more and longer work than you're giving it for it to register much on the gauge if at all. That thermosiphon is an amazingly effective system -- a lot of radiator and a LOT of fan on a small system. On mine, I have to cover the grille to get it it to even warm up on a short run. At the end of the run, it will be hot enough on the top tank of the radiator to be uncomfortable to touch. The bottom (Where your temp probe likely is) will be quite cool.

You can stick a thermometer in the filler neck to see how warm it is at the top aftr running a while. But warm at the top and cool at the bottom indicates a good cooling system. A thermosiphon uncomfortably warm at the bottom would be a sign of possible blockage or restricted flow.

I think you're just fine.
 
it's normal for them to have a bubbling sound after it is shut off . if it's not boiling over or heavy steam coming out don't worry about it, don't over fill it has to have room to expand this is a none pressure system.as for a water pump doesn't need one if rad. is kept in reasonable shape, i've run siphon flow tractors for over 40 years an still own one there almost a trouble free system,one good thing is no water to wear out and replace.
 
Thanks the feedback. I know the thermosiphon system is slow, but is there any testing I can do on the block to make sure it's not clogged? If I remove the radiator, can I use a garden hose and send water through the top to see if it comes out the bottom? I know these are not pressurized systems, so will that cause any problems? How easily should the water flow through it? I had the radiator off recently, so it is easy to remove now.

Thanks,

Jimps in GA.
 
you sure can it should run out as fast pretty much as fast as goin in. i hook a hose to the bottom and reverse flush them.try both ways and you should have the loose scale come out.
 
Try this. From your description, you have the coolant at a level that it has found on its own, low enough not to overflow, high enough to connect between the head and radiator at the top. All that's good.

Since you seem intent on it, drain it. Measure what you get out. It should be about 13 quarts, or 3-1/4 gallons. If it's anywhere near that (and allow for a little bit to be in low spots inside the botor and radiator), you do NOT hve any major accumulations. If you were to only get ten quarts, that would be another matter. If the thermosiphons accumulate sediment, it tends to be toward the rear of the water jacket around the #4 and #3 sleeves, and toward the rear of the head.. The best solution to that, if you should find it to be the case, and since you are gettin' handy at pullin' the radiator, is to pull it once more, and the two cast connections to the motor, and goin in through both of them with a pressure washer nozzle to break up the mud and rinse as well as possible. Follow that up with a couple of good hot flushes like is described in the owner's manual, first with washing soda, and then a plain water rinse. before refilling with an antifreeze/anticorrosive coolant.

But honest, I wonder if you aren't expecting something from this system that it doesn't do. If you get three gallons or better out of it and it isn't overheating and you know that your probe works, I'm not seeing a problem in need of a fix. They are notoriously cold-blooded. A system with a thermostat, with or without a water pump would be a whole other matter.
 
(quoted from post at 15:30:29 01/25/10) you sure can it should run out as fast pretty much as fast as goin in. i hook a hose to the bottom and reverse flush them.try both ways and you should have the loose scale come out.
Click to expand...

That's what I hoped to hear. Thanks for the advice.

Jimps in GA.
 
(quoted from post at 18:37:44 01/25/10) Try this. From your description, you have the coolant at a level that it has found on its own, low enough not to overflow, high enough to connect between the head and radiator at the top. All that's good.

Since you seem intent on it, drain it. Measure what you get out. It should be about 13 quarts, or 3-1/4 gallons. If it's anywhere near that (and allow for a little bit to be in low spots inside the botor and radiator), you do NOT hve any major accumulations. If you were to only get ten quarts, that would be another matter. If the thermosiphons accumulate sediment, it tends to be toward the rear of the water jacket around the #4 and #3 sleeves, and toward the rear of the head.. The best solution to that, if you should find it to be the case, and since you are gettin' handy at pullin' the radiator, is to pull it once more, and the two cast connections to the motor, and goin in through both of them with a pressure washer nozzle to break up the mud and rinse as well as possible. Follow that up with a couple of good hot flushes like is described in the owner's manual, first with washing soda, and then a plain water rinse. before refilling with an antifreeze/anticorrosive coolant.

But honest, I wonder if you aren't expecting something from this system that it doesn't do. If you get three gallons or better out of it and it isn't overheating and you know that your probe works, I'm not seeing a problem in need of a fix. They are notoriously cold-blooded. A system with a thermostat, with or without a water pump would be a whole other matter.
Click to expand...

I'm just trying to make sure I check it out while I'm working on it. It has bothered me not knowing if it is working. Call it a personal problem (I have many, just ask my wife!) As I work on each piece I want to try to learn and understand as much as possible. There's been some shade-tree mechanicing done to this tractor over the years, and I want to make sure it is working like it should. This was my Grandfather's tractor that he bought new in '49. I hope to be able to pass it on as a good workhorse.

Thanks for the tip on checking the coolant quantity after draining. I'll plan on flushing it as you indicated above. Should be a good Saturday project.

Thanks again.

Jimps in GA.
 
Yes, it does make a good morning or aftrnoon project to check out.

If you want, before you drain and measure, let the tractor get warmed up some. Keep a HAND on it as it does so, to gauge the temp at various spots along the side of the crankcase and above the bottom of the waterjacket. Initially the heat will flow more on the front end of the block, but as you warm it up under no load the heat will distribute more evenly.

If there are spots that reamin quite cool while everuything else seems to be warming up, those might be evidence of sediment impeding cooling. Two of the 113/123s I've opened up exhibited this, and it was at the rear end of both the block and the head. In the block where it was most easily seen as things were taken apart, the "mud" filled the back end top to bottom and sloped down (picture half a parabola) to wrap around the front end of #3. If you experience that, check the coolant volume and exercise your own judgment from there.
 
Thanks. This is good stuff. I'll post back when I get this done. Hopefully this weekend.

Jimps in GA.
 
I have a brand new rebuilt super a and even running it about an hour and a half I took the radiator cap off by hand to check the level. It doesn't even get hot this time of year. I would think they run cool because of the large volume of water around the cylinder that the normal type engine does not have. The water displaces most of the heat then the little bit left over is cycled through the thermo system. The only part of the block that heats up is around the head.The rest is pretty cool....Just my observation of my rebuild.
 
You're welcome. I suspect you're okay, since it's cool at the bottom after some moderate work. Apart from that sediment issue (which would show up in the volume of drained coolant)if there were enough obstruction anywhere in the system to inhibit regular flow and cooling, it would show up at the bottom, which is normally hand cool.

I'll look forward to hearing how you make out.
 
Got it done today. Drained the coolant, approx 3 gallons collected, some got away. Removed the inlet casting and used garden sprayer to flush it out through top and bottom openings. Lots of brown/orange water and some chunks of mud and scale. Flushed both ways for about 30 minutes until water ran clear. Check tempertaure probe while I had it out with a pot of boiling water. Checked out OK (it should, it's new, but probably made in China so I needed to verify). Buttoned it all back up and filled with drained 50/50 mix (it was clean) and added a little more to make up for the displaced sludge and escaped coolant. Cranked it up, waited a few minutes to get warmed up and then ran her up to 3/4 throttle. After 15 minutes no movement on temp gauge. So, to accelerate things, I covered the front of the radiator with a trash bag. 10 minutes later the temperature started to rise a bit (still in cool, but movement is good, means it is working). 10 minutes later it was almost up to "Run" level on the temp gauge so I removed the trash bag. 5 minutes later it was back to below cool. That is one efficient radiator! Ambient temperature was 45 deg. I opted not to run a flush kit through it at this time.

So now I know it is working correctly. It is good to be validated with hard evidence. I suspected it was working fine, but just wanted to be sure. Thanks for all the advice and suggestions.

Jimps in GA.
 
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