When did engines start using high detergent oils?

My son has an old Willys jeep. He just told me he blew the motor in it because he was using high detergent oil and it should have been non detergent oil. The jeep was built late 50's.

I just checked my owners Manuel for my 1970's Farmall 140 and it does not mention anything about using none or high detergent oil.

Anybody know the story on high detergent oil?

I had a freind that had the same thing happen on an old chevy. When he tore it down the detergent oil had cut so much crud loose the non detergent had left behind that it clogged everything up.

Detergent oil (of various levels) have been around from WW2. Manufacturers have used it (in many cases as soon as they could specify it). Unless that jeep had been owned by a person that sought out and used non-detergent oil, it likely had normal engine oil used in it for a long time. If it had been using Non-detergent, and had the oil change interval increased to infinity, it might have been sludged up to the point of plugged lines and reduced lubrication if detergent oil was used. I would pull the pan. If it looks like oily camp fire coals inside it might have been problematic to use regular oil in it. I am a CJ3B owner, and they are pretty tough. especially if they have the external filter, and the oil is changed at 3000 to 3500 mile intervals. JimN

I just read some old posts on the subject. Sounds like the smart thing to do is to drop the oil pan and if there is a bunch of crud clean it out then do the same thing to the valve cover. Then if the engine is clean put in detergent oil and change it just as soon as you see any color for a few times.

The jeep had been setting in a barn for a long time before my son got it. What do you want a bet it was put up with dirty oil and the pan was full of crud.

It sounds like a plan. Good luck, A son repairing their own vehicle is a great thing. (mine is putting an engine in a 88 civic SRXsi.) Jim

People put questions on this on here all the time,and from what i have heard it only matters if it has never used detergent oil. If it never has or if your not sure your best bet is to pull the pan and valve cover and take a look and clean it out. I don't even know if you can still find non-detergent at most places, at leat i have not seen it. Most engines today run typical engine oil, which is detergent in most cases.

I'd suspect the laying up had more to do with it than the detergent factor in the oil. If it set for a long time, there's a good chance there was a lot of water from condensation in the pan.

Detergent oils get a bad name in cases like this because of the hype given to laundry detergents. Honest, they don't act like Scrubbin Bubbles. They do contain a surfactant, that will bond with surface crud and carry it to the filter. They do NOT break things up. A good surfactant in an oil will loosen stuff up well, floating it off the surface of any sludge, but gradually, so it is important, as you observe, to change oils and filters more frequently when changing over.

That said, there was a version of the later 5.9 Cummins in Dodge pickups that would "look" dirty after 500 miles, but would test as perfectly good, serviceable oil.

Depending on what you mean by the motor being "blown". . . if it truly is blown (i.e., rod or main bearings chewed up with the dmgage to the crank that goes with it, or broken rings . . .) a cleanup and oil change isn't going to help it. I

(quoted from post at 19:43:17 01/03/10) My son has an old Willys jeep. He just told me he blew the motor in it because he was using high detergent oil and it should have been non detergent oil. The jeep was built late 50's.
Anybody know the story on high detergent oil?

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That's pretty much an old tale that just won't die. Someone who didn't have all the facts, and didn't know much about oil probably told your son that. That jeep may have been parked in the barn because the engine was on it's last legs?

It seems like engines started using detergent oils when they started using full flow oil filters. The detergent keeps the crud in suspension and caries it to the filter.

Some engines without oil filters have sludge traps, basically centrifgal oil seperators that would spin the oil and collect the crud. Otherwise it would just settle in the pan or the oil tank.

There is no point in detergent oil if there is no filter.

Greg

Hydraulic valve lifters?

OK, you're the closest to anyone I have ever heard with an actual experience of detergent oil supposedly causing damage. I suspect he was wrong about his diagnosis.

My experience is that I have always put detergent oil into any old tractor I have bought with no discernable ill effects. We're counting 56 farm tractors, three bulldozers, and two road graders.

The worst was a '39 M which failed to drain any oil after I pulled the plug. We'd been using it a while like it was bought, with a broken oil pressure gauge. After a momentary feeling of horror I poked a stick in the hole and a little water and a lot of black oil came out. After refilling with detergent oil and using it almost a year (it has a Farmhand loader) I went to change the oil and again NOTHING came out. Another stick and oil came out. Yeah yeah I need to pull the pan and clean it out but the detergent oil did not and does not dissolve and break crude loose. It does tend to keep curd in suspension but it does not even do that really well.

Those who have overhauled an engine will testify there is always crud in the oil pan and on the top of the head, even with regular oil changes with good detergent oil. Try using detergent oil instead of diesel or solvent to clean up an old pan.

So I just believe it is an old wive's tale, similar to "12v will ruin a 6v starter". Both sound logical but in practice they just do not happen.

I tend to agree. Most people don't park perfectly good running vehicles for years.

To simply say that stories of good engines going bad from detergent oil are "myths" is itself a myth.

There certainly have been situations where an engine ran pretty good until someone dumped high degerent oil in. Then it starting using oil so bad, it had to be torn down and rebuilt.

I've seen it happen several times. Our shop had to pay to fix a few. Does that mean HD oil ruined an old but good engine? Well it depends on your defintion of the words like like "ruin" and "good."

At the last tractor/diesel shop I worked at - we had a standard policy. If we had no maintenance history on an old tractor, it got non-detergent oil. We also kept two types of degergent oil around. Quaker State HDX was a "medium" detergent oil and Deere TorqueGard was "high." We made that determiniation ourselves from witnessing how fast some dirty engine started losing sludge.

What I've seen several times with cars and tractors is this. And old but good running engine gets an oil change with HD oil. And, it's a mess inside. Gobs of sludge and deposits all over the place, internally. Also probably lots of engine wear and sludge on pistons and ring-lands. Then all gets knocked loose, and the engine becomes an oil-burner.

Those that say this is all a myth, I assume, never worked on tractors and old cars back in the 60s-70s.

As to the history of degergent oil? I'm no expert, but I do know what high degergent motor oil was availble in Europe around 1940. I also know that USA production saw a huge surge during World War II, especially for use with diesel engines that had problems with sticking piston rings. Also, in the USA, when the API rating changed from SA to SB, some oils had some degergents added. That was the middle 1930s.
The key thing is - when did companies that made cars and trucks insist on a certain level to honor warrantees? That I don't know. Probably 1964 when API SC rated oil became available. Previous to that, some SB oils had detergency, and some did not.

Back in 1956 I bought near new 1956 six clyinder Chevrolet and car until first oil change it did not use any oil. After I changed oil first time with high detergent oil it used quart every time I filled gas tank, drove it for years and it ran good and never got worse and never really smoked much. Do not know if it was high detergent oil or if someone had some witches brew in it to stop oil burning when I bought it.

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. While your experience and mine are different, and I've been working on engines since the 1960's, your experience is your experience.

First hand experience in areas of disagreement are valuable to assist others in working through their problems.

The one area where I agree with you is in engines with a lot of deposits in the cylinder bores, varnish or whatever, it makes a lot of sense that detergent oil could promote oil burning, but I've just never had it happen.

I think you are right. some people say it doesn't matter and some do. I think it is different for each engine depending on it's age and history. In my opinion I think with an old tractor, or any old engine for that matter, your best bet is to pull the valve cover and the pan and take a look at whats in there. Each situation is different and some people have not experienced problems, but It makes sense how problems could occur, and based on others experiences I think it has happened.

The one area where I agree with you is in engines with a lot of deposits in the cylinder bores, varnish or whatever, it makes a lot of sense that detergent oil could promote oil burning, but I've just never had it happen.

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Good point, Andy. And the other side of that is, a really good detergent oil would loosen up rings and make them seal better, thus preventing oil consumption.

I've rebuilt many HD diesels that always had been run with high degergent oil and many were absolutely spotless inside.

Add to that my 87 Chevy Suburban with a 6.2 diesel. Run on Shell Rotella for 520,000 miles before it blew to pieces. That due to a main bearing web failure. Pulled it apart an it too was absolutly spotless inside. None of the "crud" you mention anywhere. Clean oil pan bottom heads and valve covers.

Not all degergent oils are equal in detergency, and you didn't mention any specific engines or oils. I do know that the engines I've torn down that were used with Shell Rotalla or Deere TorqGard were spotless inside - even after very high hours or miles. On the other hand, engines that had been run on Quaker State HDX tended to be a little grimy inside - especially Detroits.

I never heard the "wives tale" of 12 volt ruining a 6 volt starter though. It was standard knowledge that it worked fine in any shop I ever worked at. 6 volts will certainly ruin a 12 volt starter though.

I believe most of the hype about detergent oil in a cruddy engine hurting it are from changing to detergent, and then running the old interval before changing again- if it's cleaning up the crud, you've gotta get it out of the engine. If it's cruddy in there, the oil will start to get dark right away, like diesel does, even if it's a gasser- when I'm cleaning one up, I always change the filter after a couple warm-ups to make sure it's not clogged and bypassing, and then watch the oil color, and change it when it starts to get opaque- usually takes several changes, and yes, Seafoam is my friend. First couple changes will come pretty quick, then slow down as the engine gets cleaner.
And I have to agree with some, if you've changed the oil regularly when you should, with good detergent oil, the engine will be pretty darned clean inside when you pull it down