I'm disapointed with live pump on Farmall M

I'm thinking about converting to a PTO driven pump for the Dual 250 loader on my M because the live pump just doesnt seem to have enough capacity to run my loader very fast. Also, the live pump takes an hour to warm up enough to even move the loader when temps get down to 25 degrees.

What is the reccomended cubic inch, and gallons per minute, for a PTO pump that will operate my loader normally in all temps?

I would like to be able to pick up 1400# round bales with this loader.

Do any of you have a good used PTO pump for sale?

Thanks,
Spotted Horse

Have you drained the fluid and replaced with with new hy fluid. Picking up 1400lb bales is not what that loader on that tractor was meant to be used for. Have you put a guage on the system to chech the psi that you presently have.

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What live pump do you have on your M? There are at least two different ones.

There's the M&W pump which will fit on any era M with no modification. It's only like 3.5GPM, and was meant to operate power steering, not a loader.

There's the IH pump which is a 12GPM. Depending on the size of the cylinders on the loader, it will be pretty slow. The M would need to have been made after 1950, or have the front plate on the engine replaced with one off a >1950 M or Super M in order for an IH live pump to fit.

Odds are the pump is shot if it's taking that long for it to generate pressure.

If you're going for a PTO pump, don't dink around. 20-25GPM. That'll make the loader go up and down, but remember that it stops every time you push the clutch to stop or shift.

The pump may be starving for oil on the intake side, an hour of warm up is not good. Check the screen (or filter if it has one for restriction. You might try feeding the pump from a new clean source through an appropriate diameter suction hose to see if it is a restriction! JimN

Our SMTA was unable to raise our ten wheel hay rake. We removed the reservoir and shimmed the relief valve, and now raises it just fine. Check for any reducers in the lines to your cylinders, and especially the hose from the reservoir to the pump. A small hose here or reducers will starve the pump for oil. Tom

If use PTO pump a regular M you won't have a live pump.

Force = weight = Pressure times area of the number of cylinders combined times any multiplier linkage. If it picks it up the pressure is okay (maybe). Speed is about gallons per minute from the pump and the size of the cylinders. Larger cylinders pick up easier(lower pressure) but go slower. Speed equals gallons per minute from the pump divided by 449 and that number divided by the area of both cylinders measured in cylinder area inches squared divided by 144 for a number in ft per second speed. Multiply the ft per socond number by 12 and you get inches per second. You can measure the inches it takes to make a stroke from retracted to extended and time the seconds. If that matches what the numbers say then it is doing what it is supposed to do. You can do the speed measurement unloaded. A positive displacement pump, pumps volume not pressure. The speed doesn't care if you are loaded or not with one exception and that is when you pop the relief valve and the fluid goes to tank and the loader slows down. Small lines can cause pressure drops that can cause the relief valve to relieve and fluid goes to tank and not the cylinders. This occurs when you are close to the max system pressure the relief is set for. Small lines and hoses plus lots of fittings can soak up a 100 psi of pressure drop when moving. So measure the speed unloaded and if it is what you want then you are probably exceeding the pressure capacity of the system when loaded and your speed fluid is going to tank because the relief is doing its job.
The pump volume is proportional to the rpm it is turned at. This means more throttle which increases rpm on the pump means more gallons per minute which means more speed as long as the relief is not relieving. It takes a higher pressure to accelerate a load than it does to pick it up slowly. Hope this helps.

Bill P

Thanks for the info and ideas, fellas,... this gives me things to check out and I suspect the system is pretty much doing all it is capable of, right now.

Thanks again,
Spotted Horse