SA electrical problems, part 2

Friends,

Many thanks for all the information you shared in my original post which is now a couple pages deep.

Today, with the help of friend, we went over the electrical system with a fine tooth comb.

There is fire through the coil (bought a new non resistor 12 volt type today). We took the coil lead and arced to the frame as we cranked the engine...a nice hot spark appeared. That"s good.

So, we know the points are working and voltage is being sent to the distributor cap.

The distributor cap and rotor button and plug wires are all new.....as is everything else, just so everybody knows...all the components have been replaced.

But.....there is no spark being distributed to the plugs....none, nada, nope, nothing! OK, I take the old distributor cap and button and try them.....still nothing. I use the new cap with the old button, nothing. I then used the new button with the old cap.....nothing.

Remember, the coil wire tosses a dandy spark when arced to the frame of the tractor....that same wire gets inserted into the distributor cap and from there....the spark ends.

Why isn"t the juice going through the cap?

The system is making electric through the coil and points....as evidenced by the coil wire arcing to the tractor frame....but once plugged into the cap(s), it ends!

My pal attached his Fluke meter to every electrode on both caps and it beeped continuity....so the caps are not bad...or so it seems. The rotor buttons are perfect....one is brand new.

I"m baffled to say the least.

Have you maybe got the cap and rotor for a magneto, whih is different from the cap and rotor for a battery distributor?. Or one part from each?

Scotty,

No.....I don't think so. I have no experience with a magneto system....so I couldn't tell you the difference. But, as I said......I reinstalled the old cap and rotor (which I don't think are bad in the first place) and got the same results. So, even if the new cap and rotor were magneto type, I know good and well the old ones are correct. Besides that, both these caps and rotors look identical to me.

I keep hoping somebody will come forth and say: AH HA! Here's the fix!

At this point in time, I am more perplexed than ------.....there has got to be a reasonable answer to this.

I suspect your start/stop switch on the dash may be bad. Can you bypass it?

Mark, I didn't look through your earlier post but a couple of things came to mind. Have you or your friend checked the spark plug wires for resistance?? What kind of wires are on the tractor at present - are they solid copper wire type and all the connectors are clean and tight on both ends?? This is an exceptional long shot but is the head insulated in some way from the engine? Since you have a good Fluke meter available do some resistance checking and you might have something poorly grounded with rust or something as I don't know the condition of your tractor. Just ideas but if you have spark coming out of the distributor there isn't much left to be wrong. This is certainly going to be a learning experience to a lot of us. Keep us informed what you discover; hope something of value is in this reply, Hal.

Mark, good to hear from ya thinks for the feedback, I wondered how you were coming along..

Okay if the coil wire out the HV top tower on the coil is throwing a good hot blue spark to frame ground each time the points were closed and conducted current but then broke open...BUT THERES NO FIRE OUT ANY OF THE PLUG WIRES WHEN THE CAP AND ROTOR IS INSTALLED......

The problems may be:

1) Wrong distributor cap or caps NOT in the correct time/index/location (check and see if each time just as the points break open THE ROTOR TIP IS LINING UP WITH WHERE ONE OF THE INTERNAL CAP PICK UPS IS LOCATED if it were installed) each time the points break open the coil fires and the internal top HV input towewr (where coil wire goes) DISTRIBUTES the coils spark via the rotor tip to one of the caps 4 towers via the inside the cap pickup

2) Rotor problem like its cracked or shorted out and killing the spark to ground versus hot out to cap towers.

3) Rotor tip is out of index/location so even if cap is correct its NOT lining up with a cap pick up when the poinst break open

4) Cap problem like a crack or carbon trace or oil or dirt or moisture

5) Plugs or plug wires are bad (hard to see how ALLLLLLL would be though lol

6) Some sort of distributor out of time/location problem thats causing the rotor tip to NOT be lining up with one of the cap towers

You gotta get in there and see where the rotor tip is each time the points just break open because it MUST be lining up with where one of the caps internal pick ups woukld be if the cap were installed

If the coil fires and the coil wire is good but when you place it in the cap no fire gets out to any of the plug wires IT SOUNDS LIKE A CAP OR ROTOR OR WIRE OR INDEX/LOCATION PROBLEM OR THE ROTOR TIP IS OUT OF PLACE OR SHORTED OUT

NOTES

1) With that full true 12 volt coil NO EXTERNAL BALLAST IS USED as it was before in the location I highly recommend between the IGN switch output and the coils input

2) I recomnend you wire the coil at the preferred correct labeled polarity for best performance, for Neg ground its lil + receives IGN switch voltage while its other lil - wires to distributor...... For Pos ground its lil - wires to IGN switch and its + to distributor.

Best wishes n God Bless, hope this helps, let us know what you find

PS Make sure the distributor shaft and its cam are rotating as engine is cranked and that the points break open on each high cam lobe as the dist shaft rotates AND SEE WHERE THE ROTOR TIP IS WHEN POINTS BREAK OPEN (in accordance with cap if it were in place)

Each time the points break open, should be 4 times to fire each of 4 cylinders, the rotor tip has to be in right location and so do caps internal pick ups

Ol John T in Indiana

check rotor to cap post alignment when points break open , sounds like it's firing with rotor in between post's some dist cams are gear driven if yours is one,it, out of time.

Since you are at end of rope, here is one that isn't quite as long a shot as non-grounded head, but probably getting close. Rotor is mid point between two distributor cap terminals at time points break & spark occurs & spark is not strong enough to leap the large rotor to terminal gap. In correctly indexed rotor, timing has slipped, wrong points, are potential way such could happen. Most of the time spark will be strong enough to make the leap anyway.

Did you put in a set of points for a 6 cyl instead of for a 4 cyl? There is a difference. Compare them to the old ones especially the ground point. Please let us know. Thanks.

I stepped outside fro some fresh air and a cigarette and got thinkin' that my ealier response wasn't gonna cover it. About that time, my neighbor hollered over, and I went to go catch up and discus the elections and other neighborhood happenin's and lost all track of time.

But I see the others jumped in with some good ideas.

A thought I had just before Neighbor Dave hollered to me . . . How are you checking for spark at the plugs. Are you doing a static timing (motor stopped at TDC and trying to dial the distributor in until you get a spark) or are you cranking the motor over and never getting a spark? If the static timing, how far have your turned the distibutor. Wondering if you might simply have it 180* out -- not hard to do, happens a lot. (If far enough off, it could just as easily be the indexing that John T and a couple others mentioned -- 1080* is just the extreme case of that)

If looking for a spark while cranking, have you checked a plug wire grounded to chassis (just like you did with the coil wire)? If so does any wire spark at ANY point? If not, with everything else you've replaced (and I DO mean everything), that really leaves the plug wires or their connectors as prime suspects.

Fellers,

This is better than the Saturday dime matinee at the Bijou!

Again, allow me to state for the record, that all of the components being used are BRAND NEW, fresh from the box/package.....that includes the solid core wires. I know that sometimes, we get sold the wrong parts....like one set of points I brought home to find that the genius dealer isn"t such a genius afterall. I told him plainly I needed points&Condenser for a 1952 Super A. He gets the stuff together, it goes in a bag and after I start to install things, find the points fit "1963 and up". Yeah, that ------ me off!

Point being, it pays to look the new parts over because they"re not always what you asked for.

I pondered the timing issue and I"m going to check that out next. How it could have gotten out of time is beyond me. I have never set the timing/loosened the distributor and unless it moved by it"s lonesome....and I"m not saying it can"t happen.....but I haven"t touched it. The distributor being gear driven sure as hell can"t jump time....short of a stripped keyway or broken gear itself. One of the first things I checked was to make sure the rotor button was going around-de-round...no problem there.

Just one question if 1-3-4-2 being the correct firing order......what would be the firing order if it was 180 degrees out? Can an engine run 180 degrees out of time, IF the appropriate plugs get fired on the compression stroke?

I know an engine correctly wired won"t run 180 degrees out of time because it wants to fire on the exhaust valve is open.

Stay tuned, this caper is going to be solved. You fellers keep sending in your detective clues!

Yes it CAN fire and run if it's "technically" 180 out of time IF you move the plug wires.
You didn't say whether you're just plain not getting any spark as you crank it, or just not getting it where you expect it to be in antempt at statinc timing. From all you describe, you should be getting spark to the plugs.

Just for giggles, try the trick that will get it running if 180 out. Swap your #1 and #4 wires with each other on the cap, and your #3 and #2 wires the same. Your firing order is still 1-3-4-2, but you've moved the wires to opposite sides of the distributor to compensate for the 180.

Maybe when you put cap on, the wire from points to coil is broken and when you put cap on it makes it separate..


MAY GOD BLESS THE USA

Very interesting problem. sorry I can't add anything new but,sounds like these guys covered everthing.good luck will be looking for your saying its fixed.

Hey Mark, how you get in these darn messes anyway lol.....FWIW an old buddy once came to me all excited and ranting n raving about how an old Massey 44 he had RAN (although veryyyyyyy poor)WHEN THE DISTRIBUTOR CAP WASNT EVEN MOUNTED ON THE DISTRIBUTOR !!!!!!!!! Sure it had alllllll its plug wires and coil wire intact but was hanging there loose not even near the distributor so he asks me "Ol John T how can that happen" to which I explain the coil still fires each time the points break open and,,,,,,,,the spark was jumping from the top of the cap to one of the 4 cap pick ups

Nowwwwwww about your timing and 180 off questions:

REGARDLESS what gear the distributor is on (in time or not) if it rotates the points still close then break open and fire the coil sooooooooooo if at the time they break open the rotor tip is lined up wiht one of the caps internal pick ups, a spark will jump to that pick up if theres a plug n wire attached HOWEVERRRRRRRR to run properly (NOT like my buddys MH 44) that particular plug needs to be in a cylinder that has a piston near TDC on its Compression power Stroke BUTTTTTTTTTTTT you ask if the dist drive gear is wayyyyyyy off where it should be how can that be,,,,,,,,to which I say hey if you keep rotating the distributor (like when you time it) you can compensate the "off" timing and make her run......

What Im saying is if the dist wasnt on the right gear tooth if you can time/rotate the distributor far enough you can still get it in time GET IT?????????

Once more if the coil wire is good and it fires each time the points break open but you get no fire out of the plug wires I still think its EITHER an out of register cap or rotor problem or the wrong cap SUCH THAT WHEN THE POINTS BREAK OPEN THE ROTOR TIP isnt lined up with one of the caps internal pick ups....Thats an easy look n see test,,,,,,,observe just where the points break open n see if the rotor tip is lining up with where one of the pick ups would be if the cap were installed.....If so perhaps the rotor tip is shorted out or not on register/time itself ALSO that saprk needs to occur at TDC on teh Compression power stroke of teh cylinder that plug wire goes to

NOTE you talk like the coil fires but theres no spark to the plugs/wires !!!!!!!!! if the problem is something different we have to start this analysis all over........if the wires n plugs are indeed firing but she dont run let us know, maybe thats just a timing problem NOT ONE WHERE THE CAP OR ROTOR OR ROTOR REGISTER ISNT IN THE CORRECT LOCATION like your post led many of us to believe

God Bless yall here

John T

First, you need to see if the distributor is actually turning. Roll the engine over with the distributor cap off. Is the rotor turning?

Next, you need to find top dead center on the compression stroke on the front #1 cylinder and check the timing. Remove the #1 spark plug. Place your thumb, or whatever finger fits, over the hole. Roll the engine over slowly by hand until your finger gets blown off the hole.

At this point I can't remember if a Super A has a timing pointer on the front cover and a timing mark on the front engine pulley or not... The timing mark is on the flywheel on a Super C, and you have to view it from underneath the tractor. Both tractors use engines of similar design. Either way you need to line up the timing mark with a pointer to get exact top dead center on the compression stroke.

Now, trace the #1 plug wire back to the distributor cap. Remove the distributor cap. Is the rotor directly underneath the post where the #1 plug wire is connected? If not, it is out of time and will never run.

Scotty,

I'm going to try this.

This morning, with the hand crank, I slowly turned the engine over while sticking my finger in the #1 spark plug hole. Feeling compression, I shined a flashlight in the hole and watched the piston come up as close to TDC as I could tell and looked at the rotor button position....hehe, sitting right on #4! Because of the reach...or actually lack thereof, I couldn't crank and stick my finger in the #4 plug hole and feel for compression as it came up on TDC.

Regardless, if the timing is 180 degrees out....it has been running that way for years, as I have never touched it in the 4 years I have owned it. Yes, I should have paid closer attention before I took the old spark plug wires off. But, I didn't and there is no need in crying over spilled milk. If anybody wonders if I ever changed the plugs before....YES, I have. But I just pulled the wires off and let them lay next to the cylinder they came from, which made it a no-brainer as to where they went back.

If any of you wish to send me an email, feel free to do so. Jumptrap at windstream dot net.

I think you're onto something, 'cause what you describe is the 180 out condition, as #4 is right at the top of it's exhaust stoke at the same time #1 ia at top on compression. And, you're right, it could have been that way all along. Lemme guess, your cap has a tower on it labeled for #1 and you started hooking up wires to the cap on that basis. Swapping them around may just do it, as long as you have spark gettin' to the plug wires, which still sounds like it could be a big IF.

Persistence and the collective minds will get this figured out.

Mark - Where the coil negative wire attaches to the side of the distributor there are small fittings, screw, insulating washers, and a wire. Sometimes these fittings can get corooded, broken, etc. Check those parts for continuity / corrosion. I've had to replace / clean those parts. You didn't mention them in your posts.

I had a similar problem on a g moline puller.it had a knock. buddy pulled off plug wires and grounded them out one at a time to see if was wrist pins. Tractor died wouldnt start.ended up switching every thing even dist. no spark to plugs.ended up being the rotor, it looked ok but wasnt!I havent had that happen before or since. let us know what it ends up being, good luck!