Voltage regulators new technologies ? ? ?

Hey all -

Talking with a tractor friend this morning.

Voltage regulators seem to be a weak link on the old 6 volt tractors. Not sure if it is workmanship, quality of the materials, or technology of the day (assume they have not been really updated over time).

I am learning that regulators often give up the ghost due to lack of use, or simply PFM.

Wonder - - - has anyone ever thought of creating a solid state regulator for the old 6 volt tractors? Would also be really cool to have them inside the typical housing, so they still look right on a old tractor, just work better.

Just thinking out loud . . . .

Pete

(quoted from post at 13:06:25 10/29/09) Hey all -

Talking with a tractor friend this morning.

Voltage regulators seem to be a weak link on the old 6 volt tractors. Not sure if it is workmanship, quality of the materials, or technology of the day (assume they have not been really updated over time).

I am learning that regulators often give up the ghost due to lack of use, or simply PFM.

Wonder - - - has anyone ever thought of creating a solid state regulator for the old 6 volt tractors? Would also be really cool to have them inside the typical housing, so they still look right on a old tractor, just work better.

Just thinking out loud . . . .

Pete

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There are two possibles that I am aware of. One will take your old regulator and put SS guts in it and the other makes one to replace the cut-out for N Ford tractors (wouldn't look correct on your IH).

I've been shot down on here before on this idea, but a 25 watt variable resistor between the field terminal & ground are all that are needed to provide voltage regulation. A value in the 25 ohm range should be O.K. Of course the operator has to adjust the setting for conditions. A voltmeter is helpful, as well as the ammeter to get the charging rate where it should be. I put such a system on my brother's TD18A dozer & it worked well. Trouble is it's not automatic, & the batteries can be over-charged by forgetful operators.

Hi Pete, a solid state regulator would be outstanding, I installed on on my 12 VDC generator on the airplane, but they are not cheap (not bad when compared to airplane parts) about $135.00. It sure made a big difference though makes a generator just about like and alternater with the exception that the genny still won't charge at low R's. But the voltage is rock solid steady ammeter needle is steady and no radio noise.
JMOR is there a place that will convert the reg to solid state? And how much?
GB in MN

I’ve pondered this myself. Took it so far as to discuss the feasibility of designing a solid-state voltage regulator with a couple different electrical engineers and circuit designers. Here’s what I learned:

1 - The cutout relay function can easily be replaced by a suitable diode. In fact the “solid state cutouts” sold to replace OEM style cutout relays are exactly that: A diode of the proper current and peak reverse voltage rating packaged inside a tin can or potted in epoxy. Only downside is a there's small voltage drop (about 1 volt or so) that occurs across the diode when current is flowing. Fortunately this is not really an issue for a generator/cutout system.

2 - The voltage and current regulation function is a bit more complicated. But it too can accomplished using an integrated circuit voltage regulator, a few resistors/capacitors and a power transistor. Problem is designing/testing a circuit robust enough to stand up to the transient voltage/current surges, temperature extremes, vibration, moisture, possible reverse polarity connection, stray currents from welding, etc. that must be endured by a regulator in tractor generator charging system service. Also the good regulator design would be so its failure doesn’t cause it - or another system component (generator) - and connecting wiring to overheat and start a fire. (Product liability!)

3 - Now factor in the relatively tiny market for a 6 volt, solid state voltage regulator.

Bottom line is recovering the development cost to design/build/test/sell a handful of regulators is probably simply not worth it. Otherwise someone would already have done it.

Electronic regulators for generators 6V and 12V have done been made and marketed but there was not enough demand for them and they quit making those a few years ago. I don"t remember the brand name now but they had no more in stock and weren"t going to ever make them again. These actually did work but they did a poor job of advertising or marketing their product I think.

>Trouble is it's not automatic, & the batteries can be over-charged by forgetful operators.

That's the big problem with manual charge control!

I had an overcharging battery explode on my Minnie Mo U last winter due to the operator (not me!) not paying attention to instructions and leaving the charge switch set on "high". Fortunately he was off of and away from the tractor when the battery let go - otherwise it could have been very serious.

(quoted from post at 14:31:02 10/29/09) Hi Pete, a solid state regulator would be outstanding, I installed on on my 12 VDC generator on the airplane, but they are not cheap (not bad when compared to airplane parts) about $135.00. It sure made a big difference though makes a generator just about like and alternater with the exception that the genny still won't charge at low R's. But the voltage is rock solid steady ammeter needle is steady and no radio noise.
JMOR is there a place that will convert the reg to solid state? And how much?
GB in MN

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GB, I happened across this & remembered several postings from the past involving people such as yourself, regarding the topic of "wish thee was some way to repair these old original regulators". This might be a possibility. I can not vouch for anything here, as I have no 1st hand experience in this story. However, it looks like the poster from a Corvette forum had success with the builder.

It Works !!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Got the solid state voltage regulator conversion back from New England for my generator-based '61 and it works !

Seems I burnt up an integrated circuit polarizing the generator (which proved unnecessary). Can't tell any difference from my old mechanical regulator even with the lights on (at high beam) and blowing the horn.
Goodbye contact points !

Anybody else that wants this done can contact:

[email protected]

This fella did a good job on the hardware/electronics side in addition to great communication when I had a problem.
Be smarter than I was - send him the correct Delco-Remey V/R to convert and not an aftermarket replacement like I did.

http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c1-and-c2-corvettes/1965881-c1-solid-state-voltage-regulator-for-generators.html

This from Bob the guy that did the work. I just asked if he was still doing them.
Hello JMOR,

Yes I am still doing the conversion of regulators to solid-state. The cost of conversion is $80.00 plus $6.50 toward return shipping. I need a regulator carcass to convert, your desired polarity, the rated output of the generator in your car. your return shipping address and your check. Your email address is nice to have as I will keep you informed of return shipping etc.

If this is something you would like to do ship your regulator to me at:-

Wilton Auto Electric, LLC.

10 Stoney Brook Drive

Wilton, NH. 03086

I look forward to doing a conversion for you. Also I need the voltage (6 or 12) of your car. Sincerely,

Bob



What I have included is all I know about this, so everybody is on his own.
JMOR


http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c1-...d-state-voltage-regulator-for-generators.html


The Ford unit from DC is this unit.
http://www.funprojects.com/products/10505r-ft.cfm
Again, no first hand experience with it, yet. How it works is cloaked in mystery, but I do know one person who has one and says it really works.
Would like for Mr. Regan of Fun Projects to let me have one on the cheap to test (maybe even give back) so that I could check it out & be able to vouch for it on these tractor forums. This one is for single terminal generators with no external connection to the Fields.
http://www.funprojects.com/products/10505r-ft.cfm

The July 2009 issue of Nuts & Volts Magazine has a circuit on page 35 for a regulator. It is missing the diode that serves as the cutout. That correction was made in a later issue. I haven't tried it, but it looks like it could work.

(quoted from post at 17:53:54 10/29/09) The July 2009 issue of Nuts & Volts Magazine has a circuit on page 35 for a regulator. It is missing the diode that serves as the cutout. That correction was made in a later issue. I haven't tried it, but it looks like it could work.

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Could you scan that diagram & post it or provide a link to it?

I'm a guest on this forum and can't post pictures, Nuts & Volts isn't available unless you subscribe, but, as a subscriber, I can send you a link by e-mail (need your address though)

It is always there on MODERN VIEW, but I have to use CLASSIC and add it every time in CLASSIC, so here it is.
Scan would be nice, as I suspect I won't be able to access link from what you said.

Apparently, as a guest or a new user, I am not allowed to post a picture, or use a web page in my posts.

If I were you, I would make a throw away e-mail account that you could give out. Nuts and Volts allows me to e-mail pages and articles from the magazine to anyone I want, and you should be able to read them and print them.

Sorry to be such a pain.

(quoted from post at 16:41:24 10/30/09) Apparently, as a guest or a new user, I am not allowed to post a picture, or use a web page in my posts.

If I were you, I would make a throw away e-mail account that you could give out. Nuts and Volts allows me to e-mail pages and articles from the magazine to anyone I want, and you should be able to read them and print them.

Sorry to be such a pain.

Click to expand...

K

[email protected]

I tried to send it. Any luck?

(quoted from post at 11:18:35 11/01/09) I tried to send it. Any luck?

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Yes, thank you. A simple straight forward circuit. At first blush, I see that there is no current limiting for the generator, whereas the factory electro-mechanical unit did have such over-current protection for the generator. Older non-field controlled 3rd brush generators were somewhat self limiting in this regard and alternators are inherently self limiting too, but those are not what you are talking about applying this regulator to, so even though it may be fine for voltage regulation, without current limiting, one would need to be careful not to add too much electrical load as to harm the generator from over-current. Or add a current limiting circuit to this one.