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SA not charging, again, would like to fix, once and for all

S

scott#2

Member
John T, I've crawled all over your diagnosis posts, I assume I do not have a "cut out" system considering the novel I have written below.

Long story, completly restored, good strong batt, new harness, new "4 terminal" VR, gen puts out. It was doing ok after I put the new vr on, it sits a while and then wont charge. If I ground the F term, it will charge. I cant find a diagram in any pub that looks like mine. The new harness was installed from the directions with the new harness that I got from this site a couple years ago. My oringinal "self drawn" diagram, from when I tore it down for the restore, shows one wire from the genny and 3 total connected to the VR, including the one from the genny, I could have missed something here. In an attempt to nail this thing down once and for all, please check my connections up front. VR came from Tractor Supply. It was working with the original VR before the tear down, then stopped after the restore, then it worked with the new VR after the restore, then stopped.

"F" term on genny goes to F term on VR

"A" term on genny goes to un-marked term on underside of VR. This term reads a dead short to the connection under the VR cover that goes to the big coil. From that connection (the big coil) to ground, it reads 12 ohms.

"A" term on VR goes to one side of the amp meter

"L" term on VR goes to one side of ignition switch

All the diagrams I can find show the resistance unit in the steering tower, not on this one, though there is a wire wound resistance "stick" on the underside of the vr, that goes between ground and the "f" term on the VR, this shows 14 ohms across the terms of the "stick" and dead short to ground, on the grounded end. I assume this "stick" is the load resistor that is documented as being in the tower in all the schematics I see?

Light switch frame on tower is well grounded.

Sorry for the long post, this has been a husk in my teeth for quite some time now.

Any comments and suggestions are welcome. and very much appreciated

Scott#2
 
You haven't accounted for the fourth term on the VR, which should be a B or BAT.

If you follow the diagram of BobM's that I've linked below

A on genny to A on VR.
F on Genny to F on VR.
B on VR to ammeter
L on VR to switch.
Bobs Excellent Diagram
 
The A terminal on the VR needs to be hooked to the Armature (big) terminal on the gen. The unmarked terminal should go to the load side of the amp meter. The L terminal should go to the light switch (power in for lights) If it has the original 4 position charge control switch for the lights, LHDB it will not need the field wire hooked up to the grounding terminal of the switch. that wire is not used. If it has a battery ignition (coil) the ignition switch should get its power from the load side of the amp meter. If it is a mag ignition, it will not need any connection to the charging system, it is a ground to stop kill switch that is grounded when in through the switch body, and open when ON.
The regulator may be toast, but may be OK from being hooked up wrong. Best of luck. JimN
 
Thanks Guys, This is a 3 position light switch, 6vdc pos ground setup, does everything you said still hold true, considering the 3 position light switch??

Scott
 
Im not sure Im smart enough to fix this one over the net. Bob M and I have cussed n discussed another NEW VR he bought that isnt working quite right either.

Scotty is right on the 4 terminals on the VR but its my guess where you typed A on VR to ammeter did you really mean BAT ??????????

If she was charging before and charges if you ground the gennys FLD post THAT TELLS ME THE GENNY ITSELF IS OKAY so it must be a VR or other wiring problem

Are the 3 terminals on top side by side on the VR labeled BAT (L)OAD and FLD ??????????

If so I still think the unmarked terminal on bottom is ARM/GEN and YES it wires to the gennys ARM post

MAKE SURE THE VR"S METAL FRAME HAS A GOOD GROUND maybe run a grounding jumper wire to it as she cant work right UNLESS THE VR IS WELL GROUNDED

YES that wirewound stick resistor on VR is the series Field resistor, it sort of takes the place of the resistor on a LHBD light switch.

With the VR theres NO LONGER any wire from FLD on Genny up to the light switch remember, you dont have such a wire correct???

I guess you surely Polarized the genny prior to start up right?? if a genny is at the wrong polarity it can damage a VR !!!!!!

On the ammeter the SUPPLY SIDE has but one wire to the battery often via a cable to where the big battery cable attaches to the starter switch. Its other LOAD SIDE wires to BAT on the VR... Yours that way???

You may not wanna hear this but if shes wired right???????? AND POLARIZED and charges ONLY with gennys FLD grounded THE VR SOUNDS BAD !!!!!!!! or the wires bad from FLD to VR FLD or the VR isnt well grounded


I hope Bob or Bob M or Jim can fix it, Im runnin outa smarts and I dont have all that many to begin with.......

John T
 
Yo Jimbo,,,,,,On most of the 4 terminal VR's Ive seen.....

The ARM/GEN terminal is the one off on one side or the bottom all by itself...

The (L)oad terminal is side by side next to BAT and FLD i.e. all 3 of those are up top and together....... BAT FLD Load are side by side

Your post sounds like the BAT terminal is the one unmarked......But heck I sure aint seen allllllll the VR's lol

Talk to me my friend

John T
 
I'm out at the tractor now, reading all this stuff over and checking against Johns, Scottys and Jans comments, let ne look it over for a few min and I will answer back shortly.

Thanks,

Scott
 
The 3 position light switch IS FOR VR TRACTORS. The 4 position LHBD is for Cutout Relay tractors although it can still be used for lights only and ignore the wire that used to go to FLD on genny

What I posted still stands YOU GOTTA TELL US WHAT THE 3 TERMINALS ON YOUR VR SAY !!!!!!!!!!!! If different then what Ima thinkin I may change my answer!!!!!!

John T
 
The VR layout is: F A L in a row on top, left to right still have that pesky unmarked one on the bottom.

John, I re checked my writting and it is the way I said it is.

Should I just switch it all around to Jans or scottys descrip and try it?

Scott#2
 
I guess the big thing is just what is that term on the underside of the vr? That should tell us how it needs to be hooked up..

s
 
VR case grounded with jumper, still no charge.


The VR layout is: F A L in a row on top, left to right still have that pesky unmarked one on the bottom.
John, I re checked my writting and it is the way I said it is.

Should I just switch it all around to Jans or scottys descrip and try it?

Scott#2
 
But, John, he says it's a FOUR terminal regulator. My problem is he never accounted for anything hooked to the B(AT) terminal in what he has now. With a SuperA, I suspect he's probably got a 3-position switch, with all regulation of the charge circuit done through the regulator, not the switch.
 
4 term vr, 3 posit switch, I'm trying Scottys way first, hopefully no smoke, batt is disconnected, we will see...
 
Hang on in case the others have any further advice, but if the three are marked as you say, process of elimination says the odd one will be the BAT terminal
 
Sorry, got the magnifying glass out, the 3 terms on the VR are F, BAT AND L, NOT F, A, L.

So what the one on the bottom for???

Now what?

s
 
Sorry, got the magnifying glass out, the 3 terms on the VR are F, BAT AND L, NOT F, A, L.
So what the one on the bottom for???

Now what?

s
 
Okay, still using process of elimination, the odd one will be the A (usually marked GEN), and is the more usual layout JohnT referred to, and the same setup shown on BobM's diagram.
 
Well after my mistake with the vr markings and looking at Bob M's diags, it is or was wired correct to begin with.

F on genny to f on vr

A from Gen term to under side term on vr (gen)

A on VR to amp meter

L on VR to ignition switch

Back together "that way" she goes.

Any more ideas?

Scott#2
 
My assumption is based on the A designation on one of the terminals. We could easily tell the story if it were in hand. I just don't think hooking the A marked terminal to the Amp meter load side is correct. Fun though! Jim
 
Yup, I just went back to check your original post, and with the correction, it sounds like you had it right in the first place.

What makes you say it wasn't charging? Which way does the ammeter needle go when you simply pull on the ignition swith. If it moves toward +, you need to swap all the leads on the back of the ammeter.

You have polarized, n'est ce pas?

And you do have a wire from the other side of the ammeter running to the top of the starter switch or otherwise hooked to the negative side of the battery?

The other possibility is simply a bad regulator. They're like ignition condensers -- about one out of three is bad right out of the box.

It's also possible you've got one set up for negative ground. Some are +, some are -, some are indifferent.
 
OKAY, now that its established the VR terminals are indeed BAT FLD LOAD up on top side by side (As I suspected) the one underneath has to be ARM/GEN sooooooooooooooooo

BAT on VR to load (NOT battery/starter) side of ammeter.......ammeters other supply side to big batt cable at starter switch
FLD on VR to gennys FLD post
LOAD on VR to input power on light switch
ARM/GEN (one underneath unlabeled) to Gennys ARM

Wire it that way
Polarize the Genny

IFFFFF the VR isnt fried??? it should charge, if not take 2 aspirins n call me Monday at the office

John T
 
OKAY, now that its established the VR terminals are indeed BAT FLD LOAD up on top side by side (As I suspected) the one underneath has to be ARM/GEN sooooooooooooooooo

BAT on VR to load (NOT battery/starter) side of ammeter.......ammeters other supply side to big batt cable at starter switch
FLD on VR to gennys FLD post
LOAD on VR to input power on light switch
ARM/GEN (one underneath unlabeled) to Gennys ARM

Wire it that way
Polarize the Genny

IFFFFF the VR isnt fried??? it should charge, if not take 2 aspirins n call me Monday at the office

John T
 
Thanks for hanging in there Scotty, I'll be back in a few, after I get some lunch and put her back together.

I havent flashed it, the meter is wired correct and goes to the starter, I'll check that connection too making sure its got a good ground.


Back in a few and will start a new thread

Scott#2
 
I'm afraid he may have already fried it !!! Ive just NEVER seen a 4 terminal where the terminal underneath or off on one side all by itslef WASNT THE ARM/GEN But Ive learned to NEVER SAY NEVER LOL

John T
 
With it running 2/3 throttle, Ground the F terminal (either at the gen or regulator. The amp meter should go to charge (even with a full charge in the battery)
If it does not, the cutout relay in the VR is not closing, or the Generator has issues.
If it does not charge, leave the F grounded, and use a piece of insulated 10 gauge solid copper wire to jump between the VR's BAT marked terminal (recently found to be so marked) and the Unmarked terminal now connected to the Arm. This should spark, but it should be charging well into the meter range. If not , the gen is needing to be tested at the store, because you have just bypassed the entire internals of the regulator and it is still not charging. JimN
 
Good enough. One last thought, you mentioned running the L wire back to one side of the ignition switch. If you did you won't have any lights. That wire should go back to the input screw on your 3-position light switch, and will feed the ignition switch there directly from a connection in the switch body. It may be internal, but if you see a bar on the outside of the back of the switch with two screws in it, one takels the wire from the L term on the regulator, the other one runs over to one side of your ignition switch.

That wouldn't affect your charging issue any, though.

I've got a few things I need to get to, too, (my days all discombobulated -- it happens on Mondays when there's no mail to go up and get) but I'll check back after bit.
 
Jan, Scotty, be back in a few I am going to "OHM OUT" everything on this vr and eat a spot of lunch.

Will do Jans thing when I get back and get it together and running.

s
 
Just grounded the f term and the meter goes to charge.

With the wire connected and the engine running, lights off I am reading 6.32 vdc and increasing at the batt.

With wire on, eng running, lights on, volts at the batt are dropping, not enough output to stay up with the light drain.

With the same above and at the generator, I read 6.73 at hi thrott.

When I turn the lights on, it drops down to say 6.5 (at the generator) then builds back up.

With F jumped to ground and the lights on, the volts at the battery increase every second or so. If I drop it to idle, the volts drop rapidly.

Next ideas???

Scott#2
 
ONCE it wired right per my John T PS post below and Polarized, use my Troubleshooting Procedure once more and you will find the problem and determine if its a genny or VR problem but sounds like mis wiring or a bad VR for now (maybe cuz it was miswired or genny not polarized right)

John T
Troubleshooting
 
Well if the F grounded is charging, the VR is probably toast. The cutout relay in the VR is fine, but the Voltage control is not operating.
The generator may be a three brush unit. if so, the third brush (the one not across from another)needs to be rotated toward the fixed brush it is closest to. This increases the gen out put to its design max. These units do not charge well at low rpms. Night cultivation at 1/3 throttle will kill the battery. So If it were mine, and sense the gen is genning, I would adjust the brush closer, (I would pull the top of the regulator and see if it is a contact issue if not I would get a new one, If I could find an US made unit I would use it even if 100% more cost. JimN
 
This is what we have.

The reg was new last year and I never wired it up any other way, than the way is was originally when I started this post.

I have flashed the genny, no difference

The relays in the reg function properly when the tractor is running.

If night cultivating at 1/3 throttle will kill a battery, I would say there is nothing wrong with the genny output, I have seen it go to 7 vdc so far.

We have good connections and good wireing to all contact surfaces and the VR is grounded.

There is one thing that bothers me. When I was doing continuity tests on the VR, on the bench, the F terminal that feeds the smaller relay (the one that has the field resistor on it, in parallel, when closed reads 17 ohms and when open reads 22 ohms to the case ground. This does not seem right to me.

When I look at the rivited plate that supposedly insulates this F terminal connection on its way through the base plate, it is very crooked compared to all the others, perhaps one of the through rivits is touching the base plate.

The question here is; with the VR off of the machine and with the relay thats connected to the F term on the VR open (no contacts touching) should there be any reading to ground on the F term of the vr?

Jim, I didnt do anything to toast the vr, and Scotty, everything has shiney metal to metal contact.

Scott
 
Im not sure Im smart enough to fix this one over the net. Bob M and I have cussed n discussed another NEW VR he bought that isnt working quite right either.

Scotty is right on the 4 terminals on the VR but its my guess where you typed A on VR to ammeter did you really mean BAT ??????????

CORRECT WE GOT THAT STRAIGHTNED OUT

If she was charging before and charges if you ground the gennys FLD post THAT TELLS ME THE GENNY ITSELF IS OKAY so it must be a VR or other wiring problem AGREED

Are the 3 terminals on top side by side on the VR labeled BAT (L)OAD and FLD ?????????? DIFFERENT ORDER, BUT YES

If so I still think the unmarked terminal on bottom is ARM/GEN and YES it wires to the gennys ARM post. THATS THE WAY I HAVE IT NOW AND THE WAY ITS ALWAYS BEEN

MAKE SURE THE VR"S METAL FRAME HAS A GOOD GROUND maybe run a grounding jumper wire to it as she cant work right UNLESS THE VR IS WELL GROUNDED RAN A GROUND LINE AND CHECKED CONTINUITY AS WELL

YES that wirewound stick resistor on VR is the series Field resistor, it sort of takes the place of the resistor on a LHBD light switch. THOUGHT SO

With the VR theres NO LONGER any wire from FLD on Genny up to the light switch remember, you dont have such a wire correct??? CORRECT, NO WIRE TO SWITCH UP FRONT

I guess you surely Polarized the genny prior to start up right?? if a genny is at the wrong polarity it can damage a VR !!!!!! DID THAT

On the ammeter the SUPPLY SIDE has but one wire to the battery often via a cable to where the big battery cable attaches to the starter switch. Its other LOAD SIDE wires to BAT on the VR... Yours that way??? YES

You may not wanna hear this but if shes wired right???????? AND POLARIZED and charges ONLY with gennys FLD grounded THE VR SOUNDS BAD !!!!!!!! or the wires bad from FLD to VR FLD or the VR isnt well grounded VR RELAYS "MOVE RIGHT" WHEN ENGINE IS RUNNING, VR IS GROUNDED GOOD, GOOD WIRES EVERYWHERE


I hope Bob or Bob M or Jim can fix it, Im runnin outa smarts and I dont have all that many to begin with.......

YA, AT THIS POINT I DONT KNOW TO WIND MY A$$ OR SCRATCH MY WATCH, THANKS FOR ALL YOUR HELP JOHN!
 
Scott: If I may interceed, get a good box, box up every generator and VR you have in hand. then drop the whole thing in Lake Superior, right where the Edmund Fitzgerald went down, fly over and drop the box.

Believe me I went through all your going through 20 plus years ago with my Super A. Must have had a bushel of genys and VRs. I went and bought a 6 volt alternator with built in regulator. I also bought a new clutch type starter drive. It's basically been 20 years of trouble free electrical ever since. I don't even carry my hand crak anymore, even if I'm 60 miles from home.

I work my old tractors commercially on ocasion, I can compete. Took on a job this past summer based on cost would it have been done by an 85 hp tractor. I took in $50. per hour with my 140, burning 2.8L fuel per hour.

This hobby is supposed to be fun, why not have some.
 
You've hung right in there, Scott. Kudos for that.

If there's anything I hate, it's chasin' sparks, and if there's anything worse than a tractor for that little exercise, it's a trailer, which ought to be simpler. I can share your frustration.

It's sounding more and more like a bad VR (sounds of things you never had it wired up in any way that would fry it) which would not be a surprise. Not news that would make your day, I know. You do your best work only tyo find out it's on a bad part . . .

Don't know what you have available for time, but if I'd been laborin' like you, I'd take a breath, have a couple of my favorite beverages, and go back at it tomorow. Have you given any thought to BobM's (I think, I've lost track, too) idea about that third brush?
 
I just pulled the genny and vr off, vr goes into the trash, even though it's like new and appears to function properly maybe, just maybe, the gen goes to the rebuild shop or into Lake Superior like Hugh says.

At my last go round with it, all kinds of bizarre stuff was happening, thing wouldn't even charge with the f connected to ground and the clip to ground would throw sparks when connecting, then it would charge without it connected and output was up to 20 some vdc. I need to step away from the "kool aid" for a while before I grab the splitting maul.

This thing has a 3rd brush but I never could figure out how you move it, I dont believe this on is adjstable, it's not like the genny pictured in the manual.

Need to sleep on it, thanks for all your time guys and your suggestions, I just cant stand it when something beats me. I might have to get it running again on the gen system just for spite so I know what the problem was, then tear it all off and let it go swimming.

Maybe I'll mess with it some tomorrow, after I close my eyes and blindly sling the maul deep into the woods.
 
I agree with Hugh only he is 6 volt man and I prefer 12 volts but either one will work fine. If you have ever tried to maintain generators and VRs on 60 hour/week tractors I believe you will agree there has to be a better way.
 
Hugh,

Ya I'm thinking about it, just cant stand the looks though. Long time no talk, hows the temps up there this time of year? In the 40s here now.

Everytime I see a post from you, I think about that picture of your tractor (if I can remember right) holding up a 8 foot wide 4 gang disk, that was a pretty impressive display of these big-little tractors hydraulic systems.

Scott#2
 
The relay contacts in the VR that control charge voltage literally ground the field terminal of the gen. If it is off of the tractor, it should read 0 ohms from the F terminal to the chassis of the VR where it is grounded to the tractor. This is the high charge position and can be checked on a new VR at the parts store. When the contacts are open on the relay with the smaller contacts, using a slip of paper between them to make sure they are apart, the F terminal to chassis of VR should be between 2 and 4 ohms. This is the low charge condition. The regulator chatters between full charge rate and minimum, to regulate the voltage to 7.2 volts on average. This is a very noisy 7.2 volts as it is the average volts of the chattering points that keep it under control. A crude method, but the only way in those days.
19 ohms is not in the ball park. JimN
 
8^)

Spite's good. You'll get it.

Honestagawd, I think you got a bad VR and that's not somethin' you can get around, so you ain't been beat. Without a lot of bench test equipment that most folks don't have anyway, You pretty much had to slog through all of that just to make that determination without throwin' away good parts. But they're a strange beast. If you're old enough to remember when they were common on cars, their failure was not an uncommmon thing.

First one I got for my SuperC when I rebuilt it in '01 was just plain bad. Next one hung in for three years before it bit the shed. Latest one is hangin' right in there, goin' on five years.
When the VR is working right and the battery has a good charge, I normally see only 6 or 7 amps charge for a short while when running at half throttle or above after a start. Once recovered from the start, it will move between zero and about 2 amps to the + side while running and sorking. If I leave it sit at an idle after workin, it will show a slight discharge, but picks right back up to the 0 - +2 action when revved back up to move it. It's not near so dramatic as the swing of the needle on the ammeter on a cutout relay with the manual control of the charging circuit through the 4-position switch. On that I can see 12 amps or more on high charge after a start, and it runs at 2-3 on low after that.

So I'd agree. Chuck the VR, but never throw a good hammer away. Yeu can take If somebody local can direct you to a good motor/generator/alternator shop, it won't take them anytime to bench test your generator. They can also ttune up that third brush if it can be done. That might also be a good place to get your next VR, and have them test it. If they've got any kind of good reputation at all, they'll deliver back parts that work.

Hang in there. You're doin' fine.
 
The relay contacts in the VR that control charge voltage literally ground the field terminal of the gen. If it is off of the tractor, it should read 0 ohms from the F terminal to the chassis of the VR where it is grounded to the tractor. This is the high charge position and can be checked on a new VR at the parts store. When the contacts are open on the relay with the smaller contacts, using a slip of paper between them to make sure they are apart, the F terminal to chassis of VR should be between 2 and 4 ohms. This is the low charge condition. The regulator chatters between full charge rate and minimum, to regulate the voltage to 7.2 volts on average. This is a very noisy 7.2 volts as it is the average volts of the chattering points that keep it under control. A crude method, but the only way in those days.
19 ohms is not in the ball park. JimN
 
Put a 12V alternator on it if you want to fix it once and for all, or use it everyday. I would keep the original parts in a box if you want to go back.
 
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