Broken bolts on water jacket cover on Farmall M

I broke off 2 bolts from the water jacket cover, on the side of my M. What will i need to do to remove them?? also is there a gasket compound i could use between the block and the jacket pan, that eliminates the gasket? My old cover was leaking badly, so i am forced to remove it but unfortunately broke off two bolts, i tried everything but no go, wanted to stay in. Advise folks?? Thanks

I have welded nuts on to broken bolts. Sometimes the heat from the welding will break the broken bolt loose for you and they will turn out easily.

Or try to drill them out. Measure how deep the hole is in the jacket and make sure that you do not drill through it. Sometimes I will use a 1/4 by 20 tap to thread a bolt in to a broken 5/16 bolt. Apply heat to it after you have drilled it out. Maybe the thin wall of the broken bolt will absorb enough heat to come loose. Use a penetrating oil after you have heated it and hope it sucks in some. Just be careful to keep the drill centered on the broken bolt the best that you can.
Steve

IMHO the blue wrench is essential to extracting rusted/frozen bolts with some degree of restraint.

I like to get a pilot hole started as close to the center as I can...use a dremel or die grinder to smooth out and spot-face the place where you'll drill the pilot hole.

I have a set of 4-fluted ez-outs (McMaster Carr) which are not prone to break off like the reverse-twist versions we all love to hate. Instead these simply lose traction and slip.

Once the pilot hole is ready, I'll get out the blue wrench and heat to a dull red color. Then work quickly to hammer in the ez out and attempt to remove it with a short crescent wrench or better yet a tap handle if you are better equipped.

If you hear a loud squeak...then you've got it...but it needs some lube. Kroil or actually even a drop of motor oil will help penetrate to the source and to help smooth the reversal.

The other technique...is to setup the part in a milling machine or drill press and use a left-handed drill bit. While not suitable for an M-engine still mounted in the tractor the degree of success is quite high when one can make this happen on a smaller piece. Usually you can also center well enough to be able to drill back out to the minor diameter or slightly less, remove the thread crests as a coil of wire, and then retap the hole to cleanup.

Best of luck.

I like to drill them out and then thread a nut down over and weld it fast let it cool down a minute and then unscrew. Have had really good success with this.

I do not have a welder, so i will have to go by the drilling out method, when you say fluted ez out, that is the spiral type? I do not want to buy the wrong type, i never had to do this,but now i have 2 to get out.What is the imho the blue wrench, i am up here in Canada, so i am not sure what product this is?? When you say to heat do you mean around the bolt or the broken bolt thats been drilled out?

Blue wrench=smoke wrench=torch

Yes, I can give you some advice. That is that there are probably few dilemnas more disasterously alarming than breaking a drill bit off in a bolt that is stuck, unless it is breaking off an easy out. My advice is not to use an easy out or I assure you the time will come when you do so to your sorrow. I just completed a four day stint removing a four inch bolt enshrouded for 3 1/2 inches of its length from the top steering tower of an F-20. It had stood in the rain for years. Probably longer than I've been alive. Compound this with the fact that it was not an original bolt with the smooth shank but rather had aggressive threads filled with corrosion and producing an ungoldy amount of friction. It was nerve wracking to say the least. As careful as I was, I still managed to break off a drill bit. Things were going fine and then the 13/64s broke off in a matter of seconds. I'm still not sure why except that perhaps I was drilling in too deep. Next time I will go no more than 3/4's of an inch before going up the next size bit and then fall back and drill deeper with the first one. Thankfully I had the unusual benefit of being able to drill out from both ends. I've had to drill out a few bolts before but this was a marathon. I went through a myriad of Dremel bits, a propane torch, a can of liquid wrench and more hours than I care to try and add up pounding in both directions with a single jack.

You don't have the "luxury" of drilling from both directions but before you start I would have:
1) Reverse thread drill bits. I'm not sure if they sell them in complete sets but I'm going to look into it before I go through that living hell again. A complete drill index by 64s would be worth the money to me.

2)Douse those bolts for at least a week with liquid wrench at a bare minimum, once when you get up in the morning, once when you get home from work and once before going to bed. Don't dream of shorting this step or you will be very, very sorry.

3)You said you don't have a welding torch, but I would still get that area very hot with a plain old propane torch. It isn't nearly as good but if things go wrong you wish very dearly that you had at least given it a try. I've had some surprising success by doing so though I must aggree that a welding torch would be considerably better.

4)I believe I know what you mean by the "water jacket cover" though my tractors have no such piece and I would say the following applies. Whenever I have taken loose such a part, be it a radiator elbow, water pump, you name it I always put it back in with either bronze or brass bolts and lots of anti-seize. I'm probably kidding myself but I like to think that my antique tractors will outlast me and such a step will assure that should any such part have to be removed again in 50 plus years it should come loose with a minimum of hassle. The extra money spent for that peace of mind it well worth it to me. Without question the next guy is going to thank you and bless your foresight. It might even be yourself.

since it sounds like your going to drill... use a cobalt or TIN coated drill bit.They will cut through alot better.

I don't have acetylene either, but would add that I've found Mapp gas (in the yellow bottle) to be quite useful as an in between. Hotter than propane for either getting things hotter or getting them hot more quickly than propane will and uses the same standard head as a propane torch.

scotty, i picked up one of them cheapie torches from farm and fleet, it uses a little propane torch type bottle of mapp gas and the same bottle type of oxygen. i keep it in the tool box on the truck. you can weld and braze with it, and it will heat up a bolt cherry red real quick. they are only about 50 dollars. the oxygen doesnt last to long, but boy its handy in a pinch.

Very interesting indeed. Sounds well worth my time. Thanks to both you and Glen.

I was talking of just straight Mapp on a propane head. The Mapp with oxygen will have the same effect of being evbenhotter, but be CAREFUL if you go that route, as it will also cut metal. I'd almost recommend against it at this stage.

A skilled welder could blow out your bolt with a torch, but you shouldn't attempt it until you have some experience with it.

Thanks Guys, Should i heat up the broken bolt red hot, or heat around the bolt that is broken off. Thanks

(quoted from post at 17:36:48 09/03/09) Blue wrench=smoke wrench=torch

Click to expand...

e call it a "hot wrench" here.

I agree with mattofvinings, the 4-flute is the best. The spiral type tend to either break or strip. Left hand bits are crucial to bolt extraction. A standard (right hand) will only drive a bolt deeper and tighter. I have had broken bolts come out with only a left hand bit, if you use a transfer punch to center the small puncture wound mark. This only works if the bolt is below the surface. If above, use a die grinder (or dremel), also an end mill chucked in a hand drill works too. Drilling a hole is essential to any technique used. Preferably all the way through, but not into the water jacket!

Blue wrench is the same a ol' victor and the hot wrench. Technically it is an oxy-acetelyene torch. You can try propane (I have and bought an oxy-acetylene set and leased a set of bottles) but it is best left for sweating copper and starting the BBQ grill.

Pale Rider, left hand bits are avaliable as a set. I have been going to get my supervisor to order me a set, but times are tight (maintenance technician, manufacturing). Grainger and MSC have them, but are pricey. I'd go cobalt if the checkbook is deep enough. A grade 8 bolt is tough, but not as tough as a metric 12.9 (none on an M). Also truer words never spoken for "never sieze" or "anti seize". Brass/bronze bolts are overkill but a nice touch. I also tend to over-do projects per my wife.

Finally as to where to heat... Using a propane torch, your flame size is not as concentrated as oxy-acetelyene and a welding tip. Heating around the hole will expand the female threads, helping to relieve pressue on the bolt. Heating the bolt will expand it helping to break the corrosion bond. I'd try both spraying Kroil Oil or CRC Knocker Loose each time and allowing to cool between. It will smoke heavily, but will not burst into flames without a flame.

I'll get off my soap box now, good luck. And use all the advice in this thread, these guys probably have more years experience than I.

CT

I'd do both in separate sessions.

If you can find a bottle of Mapp gas (HD or Lowe's or a good True Value type store), it's a good bit hotter than propane, but will fit up to and work on a regualr propane torch head.

My usual approach is to heat the bolt to a low red. If the surrounding area heats up, so much the better. The point is to let the expansion that goes with the heat break up the rust bonding the threads. Let it cool until you can stand to touch it for a second or two. At that point I apply a generous dose of my favorite pnetrating lubricant. It nned s to cool some to avoid quenching and radically changitn the temper of everything. Hot/good and warm will draw the fluid in as it cools without having the effec tof queching a hot bolt. It might take a couple of shots like that.

When I think I have a good chance, I do two things before trying to back it out. First, I heat around it at a little distance. That's where the extra heat of the Mapp comes in handy. The extra heat soaks into the surrounding metal, expanding the female thread, but requires working quickly. When the surrounding area is hot, I always try to give a little nudge toward actually TIGHTENING the bolt first, then, put the counterclockwise torque to it. Not Gare-on-teed, but it's worked like a charm for me many times.

PS. IF you break a drill or extractor... Well you will come back asking more questions. :lol: Good luck.

CT

Well i tried i used fluted (gray) extractor, heated the bolt, loaded the site with Liquid wrench, still no way, the extractor feels like she will break off. Whats next, i dont want to break the extractor off, as i may not be able to drill it out after. Advise Guys