a couple of radiator questions

Hello gang,

Just starting to work on my new toy (1941 Farmall B.)

I'm starting at the front...which means I'm working on flushing the cooling system and putting in new coolant. I know it hasn't been done in a minimum of 7 years and maybe more like 15.

So, a few questions:

1) Where do I drain the radiator?
2) Is there any good reason not to use a "super flush" type of product?
3) Parts: Where do you recommend I look for basic parts? At this point, I need the gasket that is in the radiator cap and I also need a fan belt.
4) That reminds me, which part do I have to loosen to replace the fan belt, and do you think I need to remove the radiator to do it (if such a thing is even possible)?

Thanks!!!

Ross

The radiator has no drain but there is a drain in the lower aoutlet from the block. To clean the system after you drain the system i would fill with vinegar and let it soak for a day or so as the vinegar likes to dissolve rust. Since there is no water pumpbuying flushing stuff just cant do a good job. Since you are new to the fan belt i would take off the hood.The nut on the back of the bracket next to the head is not supposed to turn instead turn the shaft a the front of the bracket just behind the pulley. You mite want to use a wrench on the nut behind next to the block as over the yrs who knows what shape it is in. After you get the fan shaft loosened up it will drop so you can get the belt off the crank pulley then you can get it off the fan. Be sure to get the correct size new belt or you will have fun getting it re-installed. This will also be a great time to put a new belt for the gen. You need a 17255 belt which means 17/32 wide and 25 1/2 long. good luck and have fun not a bad job if done rite.

Hi Gene,

Thanks for the response.

I have to order the service manual so I can become more familiar with the parts and layout since I'm not sure what half of the things you mentioned are!

So, two quick clarifications:

I have what appears to be a hose coming from the radiator into a little thing which appears to have been a heater (just guessing) because it has cut electrical wires sticking out of it, and then there's a hose from there up into the block somewhere. Would I take that first hose off to drain the radiator?

And for the fan belt, I have to lower the top wheel it's attached to, not the bottom, right?

And where's the generator belt?

Sorry for the newbie questions. I'm ordering books now but I'd really like to get started!

Best,
Ross

Not sure what the disconnected electricl thingy is. If it has two wires I might guess that is/was a core heater of some sort - definitely an after-market add-on. No matter, you might leave it in place until you got a piece of the right hose to replace it.

To drain you should only have to remove the cap (and by rights not even that if your system is truly the non-pressurized one as it was built -- it should be vented at the top anyway). The actual drain runs from the lower left side of the lower inlet on the motor. If it hasn't been modified, you should see a short piece of steel pipe capped off and sticking down vertically through a hole on the left underside of the front bolster. The top end of this pipe will be threaded into a 45 street elbow that threads into the inlet casting. To drain , just remove the cap at the bottom. I say that like it's easy. It's sometimes necessary to get a pipe wrench on the vertical pipe to get the cap off without threading the pipe out of the elbow further up. Even then, it's not uncommon to find the pipe to be plugged up with sediment -- both the common crud and anything that might have been dumped in there over the years as a sealer -- and need to ream it out with a stiff wire. If that doesn't do it, it may be necessary to remove the pipe anyway and maybe even the elbow if it's plugged, too.

If that pipe is missing start looking at the inlet casting. You'll find some folks dispensed with the piping and used just a pipe plug in the thread in the casting, or in the elbow. (A's, for example, had just the plug in the casting.)

Vinegar works like Gene suggested, as does washing soda (Arm and Hammer still makes it, you'll find it in the laundry detergent aisle right near the 20 Mule Team Borax.) Two pounds mixed first into 3+ gallons of water, then poured into the radiator. Don't forget to put your drain plug in first! And DON'T mix the vinegar and the washing soda! Neither is as effective at removing heavy buildup in the head and block that tends to accumulate back at #3 and #4, as getting a pressure nozzle into the top outlet and the lower inlet, but a good warm run with either will help. with the motor running, the fan suction will hold a tall kitchen trash bag up against the grill and help to warm it up well so that whatever solution you use will have a chance to circulate.

As for the fan, the bottom pulley is atached to your crankshaft and won't move. It's only the shaft in the fan bracket that you can loosen, just as Gene described. You needn't remove the radiator to do all that, but you can cut a piece of corrugated cardboard and slide in place to protect the fins if you want.

Your fan shaft should have two pulleys. The fan belt runs in the larger pulley to the front. The generator belt runs on the smaller pulley behind it. SO, if you have a generator and need to belt it up, put the generator belt on first!

And, if you haven't ordered on of them, too, the Operator's Manual is as helpful and more so than the Service Manual on some of these more routine maintenance items. I recommend it.

Probably not as quick as you asked for, but I hope it clarifies anyway.

Maybe yours doesent have a generator. There should be two pulleys on the fan shaft. Also in the hub of the fan should be a slotted screw take that out and put some oil into that so the fan gets lubed. Now the fan could have been replaced with a new assy that has sealed bearings and that screw wont be there.you dont have to remove what appears to be a heater for winter starts. Now would be a great time to see if its any good. Plug it in and see if the water gets warm. You mite want to pull the radiator off then you can remove the lower housing on the block and back flush the block as lots of junk settiles to theat area and plugs up the nickle sized holes letting water down by the bottom of the sleeves and return to the radiator. Using a hose and nozzle you can flush tons of stuff out if its bad. I have installed many sets of sleeves and pistons andwhen sleeves are removed not uncommon to find junk deep in the bottom of the water jacket of the block and many times those holes were plugged shut but by removing the lower outlet and flushing with water and compressed air you can remove most of the junk. good luck and dont be afraid to ask questions as thats what we are here for.

Thanks a lot, guys.

Scotty, I'm going to look for the drain as you describe. When you say the left side, is that looking at the front of the tractor or looking as if you're sitting in the tractor seat looking in the same direction the tractor is pointing?

Ross

Sitting in the seat facing forward -- the side opposite the oil filter and ignition.

Hi again,

So, when I was taking off the front part of the hood, one of the bolts (that holds it to a bracket that connects to both sides of the radiator and just above the fan belt) broke off in the hole that it screws into. I started trying to drill it out, but took a break as I'm not sure if there's a better solution.

So, I'm still wondering about draining the radiator and replacing the fan belt, and to make my questions clearer I've taken some pictures which you can see at:
http://www.rossputin.com/tractor2.htm

Also, as you can see in the last picture, I have another minor problem...

As always, I really appreciate your advice!

Best,
Ross
pictures of Ross Farmall radiator and fan belt

Okay. In the order of the pictures . . .

At the back end of the lower radiator hose, on the casting that the hose fits onto, I can see the street 45 I talked about. From there down, I'm not sure what you have. That hose clamp suggests that there is a stub of pipe on the bottom end of the elbow that has a hose clamped onto it. Lord only knows what's at the bottom end of the hose that serves as a plug or drain, but that's where you need to open it to drain. It does appear to pass down through the bolster, so look underneath to see what's there. If you're not sure what it is, come back with a pic or a description, but that's your drain.

As for the fan pulley, it will be just as Gene described. The nut at the very back, the one that is in the slot on the back of the bracket, is designed to stay in place, with the sides of the slot keeping it from turning. What you need to get a wrench onto and turn is that hex surface that looks like a nut (it's not actually -- it's a part of the shaft that has been machined into a hex so you can get a wrench onto it) that is right behind the rear pulley and just in front of the bracket. If the real nut at the back is the right size and hasn't rounded off, turning the shaft will loosen things up. What will happen a lot of times, even if the nut is good, is that the threads on the rear end of the shaft are so rusted up that the nut will slip out of the slot and start turning with the shaft after it has loosened a little. If that happens, you'll need to wiggle a wrench onto the nut as best you can to hold it, which is what Gene was talking about. It's a lousy angle with not much clearance. The wrench won't go on straight and it can be a knuckle buster, but that's the reality of it. Gloves on both hands might reduce the skin taken off the knuckles.

As far as that plug wire. Two thoughts. It could use a new set. If you go that route, do it one wire ata time. Apart from that, if you know anybody that does automotive work, somebody ought to have the newer style tension clip (not a loop) that you can fit onto the end of the wire you have. It will fit over the tip of the plug rather than the tip threading down onto the loop. Might be your local auto parts would have one laying around.

As to the snapped off bolt, I assume it was holding the grille and not the hood. As to being "correct", that's a specialized bolt that is machined down to narrower neck than the thread for the last 1/8" or so immediately under the head. Because of that, the parts book doesn't say just what it is, but the picture in my feeble mind says it's a 3/8" NC, maybe 5/16" by about 3/4" long. As far as getting it out, you have the advantage of being able to get penetrating oil of some sort into both sides of it. While you're working on the coolant, take an occasional break to heat it a few times with a propane torch with abundant doses of PBBlaster, Liquid Wrench, Kroil or whatever penetrant in between. Drilling is probably your best first shot, but I'd suggest getting yourself to Sears or a good hardware and get a small set of left twist drill bits. If the heat and the lube get it loose, the left-hand torque (drill running in reverse!) of the bit will often bring it right out. If it doesn't you can get an EZ-out into it, and as long as you've driulled all the way through, you can even drive the EZ OUT back through if you should snap it off. (Not often you get that opportunity!)

Hi Scotty,

Thanks, I'll try the left-hand drill trick and the other stuff!

I added two more pictures to the web page at the link below which should give you the "final answer" about my drain question.
http://www.rossputin.com/tractor2.htm

Oh, before I asked what I should use, I bought some sort of Prestone flushing stuff. Is it OK to use that if I really don't want to go to the effort of returning it? Might not cost much more than vinegar...

Any suggestions on where to buy fan belt and gasket for radiator cap?

Thanks again,
Ross

p.s. What's an "EZ-out"???
pictures of Ross Farmall radiator and fan belt

Okay, now we're getting somewhere.

First off, I'd misunderstood where the gizmo with the two wires cut off was. That does indeed look like a heater. Three observations about that

1) To drain, undo the hose clamp at eihter end ofat long lower hose. Your coolant will drain from the pipe and the heater for a while, so be prepared to catch both if it's got antifreeze in it.

2) The heater looks to be mounted to the holes where the bracket holding the generator would normally be. So, unless whoever put that on found a very clever place to mount the generator (not likely), you don't have one, so the belt for same is not an issue at this point. The red paint on the pulley for the generator belt also suggests that it hasn't had one, at least since the last paint job.

3) IF IT WERE MINE, I'd take the heater off and keep it on the parts shelf as an artifact and conversation piece. Where it splices into the upper radiator hose, go to NAPA and get a piece of 2" I.D. hose 2-1/4 inch long to have a good hose at the top. That will leave you what you need to mount a generator later if you want. IF you go that route, it looks like you'll probably have to put a new pipe nipple on the bottom end of the elbow -- long enough to reach down just an inch or so below the bolster, not low enough that the tires would hit it -- about 5" or so and a cap for the lower end. It's all 1/2" steel pipe goods. If you like the idea of having the heater there, it can't hurt to leave it in place. It's your tractor, so it's your call on that. The heater is a funky kind of cool in its way.

As far as the Prestone flush, I don't know what to advise. Can't hurt, might help. It's made more for modern engines with water pumps that circulate quickly. Is it one of those that requires other gizmos to circulate it? That might make it more bother than it's worth. I don't know what it is chemically, or how effective it would be with the slow convection flow of the thermosiphon, or with heavy sludge buildup. Can't hurt to try it, I suppose.

An EZ-Out is yet another gadget. it looks like a small square tapered punch, but the tapered section is machined with flutes at the corners at an angle that will bite into the bolts as you use the rectangular top to turn it counterclockwise. Tap into the hole you've drilled until the flutes bite, then turn. They have their place, but are notorious for breaking off, leaving you with an incredibly hard piece of metal stuck in the hole you just drilled -- hard enough that you can't drill it back out. They're not real useful for bolts that are stuck fast.

The three tricks to drilling out broken bolts are to be centered as well you can, to drill as close as possible to the same axis as the bolt, and to start small and work up in bit size, but not so large as to damage the female threads.

All kinds of options for parts sources. oemtractorparts.com, external_link (a CaseIH dealer, 1-866-FARMALL), a few guys who hang around this board like rustyfarmall for one all come quickly to mind. NAPA should also have a listing for the belt and, if you take the cap with you, they can likely either find a gasket or get a replacement cap. Nothing special about the latter -- it was kind of the generic non-pressurized cap in its day.