I have a Farmall 450 Gas tractor. I was starting to wonder if the gas I put into it makes a difference. I am putting in the lowest octane I think it is 87. the question I have is, it has 10% ethenol.
Should I be trying to find gas that does not have and ethenol, or does it actually help with engine somehow.

Thanks
Tony

There has been a lot of debate about that on this site. I have been using 10% in my older equipment for years and haven't had a problem yet. Some claim it is hard on the carb parts and I disagree. I have a 1962 JD 95 combine and all that's had in the last 10 years is 10%, never touched the motor. I think it is okay but may effect some engines. Haven't found one yet.

No issue at all in the four cylinder engines. The tractor vet advises against anything lower than 93 in the 6 cylinder gas. Spark knock is an issue with slow turning engines. but ethanol improves that. use it. JimN

Today's 87 octane is the equivilent of the 1950s 93-94 octane (measurement standard has changed). If you're running 10% ethanol you probably have at least 89 octane or what would have been 95 octane when the tractor came out.

Octane is the ability to resist combustion under conpression. The higher the compression ratio the higher your octane needs to be to take advantage of the engine's potential power. Until you get over 8.5 compression ratio today's 87 octane is all you need.

The 1940 M's "High Compression" engine only needed 71 octane to operate efficiently.

A 450 Farmall runs at 7:1 compression (or less can't find the numbers right now) - your octane level isn't causing your problems.

Those folks that think ethanol will damage a carburetor have never had a tractor carb apart. If they had, they would know that there is absolutely nothing inside that can possibly be damaged. Everything inside is made of steel, brass, pot metal, or cast iron. The one exception would be the viton tipped needle valve, and that viton is formulated to withstand alcohol.

Well lets see here he is telling ya that the gas of today is better then what was out there back in the day , and to this i say B/S just try and run a car from back then on todays gas . The cars of today have a low compression ratio layed back cam timing pre ing. knock detectors computer controlled injection . And are by no means a hard working industrial engine .Now over the years how many times has that head been off and milled ???? what pistons do you have in it ???? Do you work it or just play with it ???? Today we started planting Oats and had the old 400 gas on the new to my buddy a 5100 21x7 drill loaded full and John did not get the 93 octane and could only get 87 because they were out at the one station and instead of going else where he figured it would be fine , OOOOOPpppps the 400 started to spit sputter back fire thru the air cleaner and lots power and died coming up the hill on the first round . i was discing and saw him stop and a couple seconds later he get off and heads my way . I stop and go over to him and he told me what had happened . All i had to day was yep told ya ya can not run it and we had to drain the tank make a second trip and get the 93 . Filled it up with the good stuff and she ran all day never a miss . But he has the high dome pistons and a 450 gas head . Also keep this in mind that the new pistons that ya get in these overhaul kits are NOT THE SAME OLD FASHIONED PISTONS FROM DAYS GONE BY . The new pistons are NOT FORGED they are CAST and a cast piston CAN NOT get ride of heat thru the skirts like a FORGED piston can and they will Swell more then the forged piston will . PLUS this new gas is designed for emissions and the 87 burns MUCH hotter Aand the addition of alkihol leans the mixture and the ALKIHOL is a oxygenating agent thus leaning the burn to burn HOTTER . Where as the 93 octane is a longer COOLER burning and does give more power and believe it or not ya use a little less fuel per hour . I have beat this dead dog so long now that i have gotten to the point that i really and truthfully Do not give a SHUTT what ya want to run and since i do not have to FIX what ever ya break here again i really don't care . When you guys that think you know one forth of what i know can fix what i can and tune a gas engine or diesel better then go for it . I do not know everything BUT i am DAMN good on I H Ford and MOPARs Also keep in mind here that i am not the one asking the questions i am the one that give good answers FOR FREE

In January of 58 IH was recomending a min. of 87 octane, research method for the gasoline engine. probably for original compression ratio.
What would that octane be = to with the present method, anyone?

I have access to 87 octane at bulk price through work. Have you ever used/tried any of the 'octane booster' products that are sold at auto parts stores? There's about $0.50 a gallon difference so I'm wondering if I can run the cheap gas and improve it or if I just need to buy the good stuff to begin with? Thanks, Sam

We have also been down this road with the snake oil. And from whaqt we got back from the lab that did the testing on the gas that all started over a MELT DOWN of a 706 gasser with 30 hours on it after a rebuild and i am not just talking a shade tree rebuild this was a highend rebuild with line boring and up grade to 291 cu. in. rebuit cam with new lifter even a C C ing of the head magnafluxing of crank rods even a balancing of the engine hand fitting each piston to each hole with .004 skirt to wall clearance you name it it was done . This rebuild was a long time in the making as this is when we where eating a exhaust valve with every feed grinding as here is when we LEARNED all about why I H started using the LOW ASH engine oil and this started back when the 460-560 came out as guys were eating exhaust valves like M&M's during hard field work and I H found that it was cause by carbon deposit from oil that would build up on the valves and under load it would just tourch a neat little VEE out of the exhaust valves . Well i sold this one 706 to this guy that i knew but at the time i just knew him as yep he lives there and he is trying to farm with no money and not much for equipment as he almost lost it all by getting in to deep with to much brand new John deere equipment and farm price went down the tubes and his friendly banker turned not so friendly . He managed to keep his farm but had to start all over again and was trying to farm and work . He first came to me wanting me to rebuilt a plum wore out Super M that the engine was totally shot and it jumped out of third gear and had other problems in the rear end . We sat down and talked about it and i worked up a price for him and i told him that putting that much money into a S/M was plum nuts . I told him that i had a nice 706 gasser setting at a sale lot that did not sell the last sale that had a nice loader on it and that i would pull the loader off and sell him this 706 gasser with a wide ft. flat top fenders and three point with godd tires and a good T/A and stand behind it for 3 months for 3250 and i would give him 650 for his junk S/M . That would save him money and give him a better tractor that had better hyd. live PTO plus power steering . Well he said that he would really like a 4020 i told him that i could do that also But a side consul 4020 was going to raise the price just a weeeeeeee bit as at the time they were selling for 10 to 12 grand . Well what about a 3020 side consul well they are selling for between 85 to 10 grand . So for the price of one deere i could sell you three I H's . Well what about a plow , i have a nice 540 4x16 setting at a nother sale lot that is going to be dold this week but if you want i will pull it and sell you that plow for 450 . So Eugene thought about it for a couple days and took the deal . For years that tractor ran great , Till he switched oil as he found Cheaper oil from some one and switched fuel suppliers . The only repairs to that tractor that i made over the first 12 years were one generator one O/Ring and a yearly tune up till the oil thing . When it ate the first exhaust valve i did not think much about it . Pulled the head run it down to the machine shop and had the head done . two weeks later it eats a another valve , Pull the head and since it did it under warranty i get to do it again . Take it back to the machine shop and he gets to do it again . Chad the machinest and i both pull the head down and start looking real close at the valves . It was not the same valve that went the last time or on the same hole . So we both work on this head and we do a total rebuild of it with NEW guides NEW SEATS NEW FROM CASE IH VALVES SPRINGS KEEPERS AND RETAINERS set valve heights as Per the factory spec's . Put the head back on and guess what two weeks later while grinding feed she eats valve #3 . This is getting old so when i do not know the cure for a problems i go looking for someone that has more knowledge . So i start asking questions and talking to a ton of old I H mechanics and old factory rep's that i got there names from other people and a guy by the name of Bill from out in Marion Ind. who has been a old I H dealer as his family had been a long time I H dealer and he ran the service dept and they did all of the own in house machine work he and i had a four hour talk on the phone and we have had several phone chats as i am always willing to learn even at my grumpy old age and if i can pass on what i have earned and help someone then i am more then willing to do so . So he dug around and found the TSB on the oil thing and why the low ash is needed in I H engines to stop torching of exhaust valves. Well then here again on Eugene's 706 we decide to rebuild after we got the valve problem solved and this is now a couple years down the road Eugene want MORE POWER , ok i can get ya maybe 10-15 more ponys . SO we build him his engine It made more power then i had hoped for it ran super for 30 hours TILL he had this new fuel supplier bring him gas and let the local SNAKE OIL saleman sell him this wonder cure for older gas tractors for the small price of 8.50 a qt. and it would treat 250 gallon and bring the octane level up by two points so if ya just put in two qt.'s per 250 gallon you will have almost racing gas . Well after filling the farm tank with 12 qt.'s of this SNAKE OIL and 500 gallon of this supposedly 93 octane gas that the supplier dropped in the tank the 706 made it out to the far end of the field going DOWN hill but a 1/3 of the way BACK UP HILL she sized the engine. So we get to tear it apart UNDER warranty and the min. i opened up that engine i could see what had happened and from my days of playing lets GO FAST i have made more then my fair share of shell we say SPARE PARTS. and i can tell when things have gotten way to hot from a fuel related problem . SOOOoo here again we go on the HUNT for someone that is smarter then me and that can run tests on the fuel . Well we find a independent lab that will test it BUT WE MUST HAND DELIVER a one gallon sample in a new clean container . SO we do this , we never tell the lab who's gas it is or the what we think the octane of it is . And hour and a half after we dropped the sample off they call us as we are still on the road and they tell us that OH that is Ashlands gas and it just makes the 87 octane level and it has this and that in it and when it reaches peak combustion the heat level goes almost off the chart and it is doing this and that and if it was in a tractor engine that was working hard it is no wounder that your pistons swelled and started to melt and it happened so fast that the coolant temp would have never reflected the super heat that was going on till after a total melt down . and oh by the way we can not identify a couple components in that gas did you guys add something to it , yes we did something the Cen PE Co saleman told us that we needed in old gas tractors , Oh well we would like to run some test on that as well and see what it does and will do that for FREE . I would hope so as what they charged would have kept me in Crown Royal till i was in the ground . So we went back down and they ran the tests while we were there and gave us in layman's terms there results , First off there was not enough LEAD additive in it to even write your name and the rest of the JUNK was as he said old STALE fuel . Over the years while being a car mechanic and a parts manager and involved in drag racing and into the later years of working on tractors i have seen more then my fair share of the Snake OIL salesman and there fancy tests to prove there junk . The only thing that i will use is Lucas fuel treatment as i can see that it does work a lot better then ATF in diesel fuel . When i do find something that works i stick with it . As for engine oils for the I H tractors the boys at I H did all the research and they came up with and oil that works FOR THERE ENGINES and THERE HYD. As to what works for me in my car and pickup when i had the Ford with the 460 it got Castrol , 10-40 for the winter and 20-50 for summer , the wifes car got 10-30 year round . Now that i had a Dodge with a Cummins it gets 15-40 sires 3 Dello as that is the second choise that was TOLD to me by a good friend that is a service manage at cummins. So it is like this If I do not know something i am not going to feed ya a line of B/S and i will either tell ya that i do not know it or i will not post to a question that i do not know for sure how to solve that problem . So as to gas for your old FARMALL if ya want the most out of it with the least problems then ya fallow some things that i have learned the hard way and they will run like the should . Now one thing about a tractor they USE GAS AND WHEN WORKING LOTS OF GAS , BUT just how much gas does your pick up BURN PER HOUR when your pulling you trailers hauling a load .So if you took lets say 48 mph for a speed of a truck and ya sucked up 4 gallon ya got 12 miles per gallon Don't see much difference here do you???? You would be thrilled with that . So ya by a diesel and it sucks up 4 gallon per acre and it cost ya at the pump 2.27 a gallon for that diesel since ya don't go and have a 200 gallon tank filled at the farm . BUT You can get the 93 octane for 2.15 a gallon and ya complain . Case in point here my 806 diesel will burn just as much as Eugene's 706 gasser the on farm fuel we get now is the 93 for the gas and at the last drop with delivery charges it after we remove the road tax on the farm gas is still way cheaper the the diesel so it cost us MORE TO run the diesels all across the board as the gasser takes one oil filter one air cleaner , the 806 takes TWO oil filters and TWO fuel filters if the injection pump on the 806 takes a dump because of the new fuel and it is heading that way at this time it is going to cost me at my price 425 to rebuild it and while i am at it i might as well rebuild the injectors . I can buy a lot of spark plugs and points and cond. for the price of one injection pump.

Vet, maybe everybody is so drunk from breathing 10% alcohol exhaust fumes blowing in their face all day, they just don't realize what they are doing to their tractor. A little crown royal in the gas may just make the day go better along with a reserve tank for sippin.

For a more technical question though, which gas is worse for carbon buildup on the pistons?

OK, to make sure I got this straight.

The 10% ethanol is pretty much not a problem.
and I should be using the higher octane ~91 for a cooler running engine.

That sound about right??

I didn't want anyone getting mad over this question, just a simple guy wanting to know what to run in his old tractor for good performance while actually doing discing, plowing, harrowing, baling...

Thanks for your help
Tony

I'd be inclined to think that the hotness and coolness of the running of the engine can be controlled by the heat range of the sparkplugs depending upon the octane of fuel used and the work load conditions. Case-ih usually recommends 4 heat ranges of spark plugs depending upon the duty, light, medium, heavy, and severe.

Well i do know that on the 460 560 they were calling for 89 But here is the kicker Most guys like all farmers wanted more power out of them and when overhaul came they wanted to get more and there have been over the years a lot of 560's sporten 706 pistons so now ya need to move on up to the 93 . And like i said on the even M's that have been around for HOW MANY years and how many times it has been rebuilt and with what head and piston combination and what timing curve it has . By the time you realize that she might be starting to have pre ing. it's almost to late as you will NEVER see or hear it coming as to the engine water temp going off the scale as the pistons get hotter a lot faster then the water does. So ok for twenty cents a gallon it takes how many gallon to equal and engine over haul ??? Myself i'll spend the extra on the gas and enjoy playing more then rebuilding . So just how many gallon of GAS do you buy for your toys over the course of a season 50 gallon a 100 - 200. So at twenty cents extra a gallon that comes up to a whoppen massive forty buck extra you are going to spend for the good stuff and oh wait a min just how much does a engine rebuild cost . So even if there is even a remote chance that i am wright here is 40 bucks extra worth the risk . I know i am cheap but even i will spend that .

While I have great respect for Vet's knowledge about Farmalls and IH's, something doesn't smell right on this problem. If you are telling us that your friend put some 87 octane in his tank and in the first round the motor begin to back fire and stop, then IMO your friend got some water in the gas he bought. I have run 221 cc and 263 cc for over 30 years now and find it very hard to believe that 87 gas would do that in a few minutes of running. Matter of fact, I have run 87 in the 221/460 for over 20 years and she still purrs like a kitten. Do I agree that 93 is better than 87. Yes. But I also know how hard water in the gas is on gas motors. Once had the local CO-OP to fill my tank up with disel instead of gas. That sure brought on a smoking ordeal. They sucked it out and replaced it with gas. Manager gave me 150 gallons at no charge because I told him not to worry about it. Did not hurt one thing. Told him to tell his driver not to dump gas in a disel tank or the outcome would not be the same. LOL Amd yes, my tank is marked GAS ONLY at the fill cap

Later
JW

Well all i can tell ya is that i have seen more plugs fouled from the 87 then when the same tractor runs the hightest . I fought with one old farmer for two years on his 400 gas that he bought new and alway had the dealer service it then he found me and i worked cheaper . He was CHEAP always tryen to work ya . He was unhappy with the way his old tractor ran after it cam back from the dealer and he wanted to see if he could get it to run better . Now he had a whole flock of modern tractors BUT this was his first New tractor in 55 . Each and every time he would bring it up to the shop as he would not have me haul it as that cost to much he would DRIVE it the three miles no matter the weather and when it got there it was ALWAY all most out of gas or it would run out just as he pulled into the lot. And i would alway put in five to move it around and test run it . You could install a new set of plugs and have it running like a sewing machine fine tuned swiss watch take it out back and plow with it and it ran great put the brush hog on it and go mow for hours it ran great , send it back to him and a week later here it comes again missin. Pull the plugs and atleast one would be fouled and not from oil . Here again from what i was seeing was gas related It took me two years with him to get him to switch . After he made the switch i would see that tractor maybe one a year to do a tune up as he felt that it need it as that is the way he always did it . He did tell me that YEP YOUR WERE WRIGHT on the gas and you did make the old girl run the way it use to when she was new. My own S/MTA will foul plugs on 87 but run light a squadded dog on the 93 . with no fouling of the plugs . So hey it's your call.

Well as i was the one draining the gas out into a funnel and i never daw a drop of water and i have fought this GAS problem for the last 15 years you can bet your bippy you can cause pistons to swell and when they do they will cause it to spit sputter back fire lose power and just plum quiet , now if she got hot enoug ht she will size the engine tight and will not turn over but after maybe 10 to 20 min. start wright back up sometimes they seem fine and sometimes they are toast . If they seem fine she still may not be and your first signs of it not being FINE is oh it seems to be using more oil , well yea the sleeves are scored along with the pistons and you may have some rings now stuck because of piston partials holding the rings in . Then other that have had this happen to them will start rapping knocking even a hard hammering . Those are the ones that are toast.IF it is a case of a light scoreing then ya can pop the head drop the pan and run a hone to clean it up and clean up the pistons and add a new set of ring and your good to go . And yea i know well i have been doing it this way for thirty year and never. Well lets just say you have been lucky . I can also tell ya this even in the War Dept's Durango the difference between the 87 and the 93 is a two to three MPG difference and it has a bit better power . Just like the mileage difference between the brands of gas there are two stations that get get around 14-15 with her normal driving and yes now that she has this new job all mileage and all gas used is written down . Out on the open road 15-16 and maybe 17 the vary best it has done and this was on the 93 before it took the twenty cents jump back when it was a dime more was 19.2 on a trip now says on th vary same trip over the same roads to and from the same place now the only thing that i can not control is the weather as to how bad the wind is blowing and from what way so now on the 87 it get 16-17 .

Thanks for the info, I'm normally wary of snake oils, but like most of the world I want something for nothing ;-) Sam

I recently torn apart a C-263 out of a 2000 hour 615 combine. The top side of the engine looked like it was COOKED. Cyls looked good, pistons were carboned up bad, intake ports were clean, but the exhaust was carboned up just as bad as the piston heads. My thoughts were the exhaust ports were too small for the design of the engine. It can take a big breath in, but it cant exhale it out fast enough. It creates backpressure, once the engine starts lugging, the head gets hotter than usual by HOLDING IN the heat. Water temps would be normal, but the oil and the cyl temps would be in left field, literaly cooking the pistons and the valves, burning the oil right out of the cyl, creating carbon deposits that would not normally be there under normal conditions.

If that cyl temp is heating up from restriction, and not by cyl pressures, the reqirement for higher octane fuel is needed to keep the fuel from preigniting from the excessive heat build up. I belive if the pressure is relived in the exhaust ports, and matched up the manifold, you may not see this condition, and lower the octane requirements from lowering the cyl temps. Ya got 4 cyls breathin thru 2 ports,,, and they are restricted in stock form thatthe problem with valves and headgaskets have been problematic since the 460. I dont know of anybody having the problem in a truck engine that was basicly the same design,,,,,, ChadS

ChadS...respectfully...one thing that came to mind is that if the exh valve guides leaked a lot of oil into the hot exhaust flow stream right at the ports...that would cook a lot of carbon right there too.

Just a related thought...not saying your theory is wrong and mine is right.