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Gears

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Farmall Bob

Member
Hi,

Does anyone get into their transmission and change the gears to make the speeds different? I would like to make the speed for 1st gear slower for the possiblity of using a roto-tiller. Thanks!

Bob
 
Hi, Bob. This came up the other day in the context of a C. You don't say what traactor you're thinking of but, if it's a letter-series Farmall, I think our conclusion that a simple regearing is not enough to reduce your ground speed sufficiently for a tiller would hold up in your case. First gear at idle would be too fast for getting a tiller through tough ground, and you wouldn't even have your motor/PTO up to a speed where the tiller could work properly. That doesn't even get into the issue of a conventional/non-live PTO.

(I've never seen one, and would love to know more about how they operate, but I still wonder if the Hydra-Creeper option on a SuperC would work for a tiller. Seems from what read in the manuals, it would, but I suspect it's the only one of the letter-series that even might do it, which would still mean you'd have to find one)

I'm sure there are other's, but the only gear driven tractor I've pulled a tiller with is my neighbor's, a little 2-cyl Bolens/Iseki with two sets of reduction gears. Running in first or second in low-low works with a tiller. A rig with that sort of gearing or a hydrastatic is really the only way to go.
 
Scotty - While a hydrocreeper would provide the ideal ground speed for rototilling, unfortunately it won’t work for a tiller. Here’s why:

The hydrocreeper is essentially a low speed hydraulic motor that attaches to the PTO shaft. To operate the hydrocreeper first the clutch pedal must be blocked down. Next a transmission gear is selected - usually 1st - then then remote hydraulic valve opened to feed the creeper motor. The creeper motor then slowly drives the PTO shaft which in turn causes the tractor to move slowly forward.

Since the PTO shaft is used as part of the ground drive train (also because the clutch must be blocked down) the PTO is unavailable to run the tiller.

----

As you point out, the ideal tractor for running a tiller will have an infinitely variable hydrostatic transmission.
 
Did you see the one for sale in the classified adds. Why not just get some gears built for a slow low. They arent too expensive if you are not in a hurry as they do get busy.
 
Aha! I'd gotten it in my head somehow that the Hydra-Creeper drove the tractor through the lugs on the ends of the brake/bull pinion shafts. So I learned someting today, and it ain't even noon yet. ;8^)

Thanks, Bob!
 
Just went over and looked. If I was feeling flush, it'd be tempting as the guy is not far at all down the road from me. Not sure what I'd do with it, and was thinking of it as a way to slow down a C to take a tiller, but Bob got me straightened out on that idea.
 
Even with the smallest possible drive gear and the largest possible driven gear, you can't get a low enough low to handle a tiller. The tractor needs to move at less than a literal crawling pace.

I've always wondered if a good machinist could build a gear reduction that fits in the torque tube. There's a long input shaft from the clutch to the transmission, plenty of room for a planetary reduction gearbox.

I suppose you could just leave the tractor in neutral, ride the brakes, and let the tiller pull you forward, but that is a lot of work and a very rough ride.
 
Well then....it"s high time one of the resident Rube Goldbergs...installs a hydrostatic transmission in Farmall A or C! I deally...the original transmission would be gutted and the hydro unit tucked inside.

I would build a hydracreeper with off the shelf goods.....if I only knew how to choose the right hydraulic motor and then how to feed and control it. I know nothing about hydraulics...except how to pull the lever and make something happen.

The discussion of lower/slower gears has come up before...the question remains as if there is enough internal room for a larger diameter first gear, inside the transmission case....on a Super A.

I just want to be able to cultivate VERY slowly, not interested in driving a tiller.

A hydrostatic Super A or Super C would be the cat"s a$$!
 
<a href="http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r16/Wardner/?action=view&current=howard-1.jpg" target="_blank">
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<a href="http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r16/Wardner/?action=view&current=trencher-1.jpg" target="_blank">
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It can be done with a shiftable gearbox installed between the axle housing and final drive. I saw one sell at auction several years ago. I think a dealer bought it for $600. He probably sold it for double that.
 
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Ya, mkirsch, this would fit. I just bought it on eBay for less than $100. It is not shiftable so that would be a problem unless you would like to split the tractor before and after the rototill work. I am going to use it to speed up a left hand side Electrall as pictured below. The ratio is 3 to 1.

<a href="http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r16/Wardner/?action=view&current=400029.jpg" target="_blank">
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Tillers can be run with tractors with a TA. I bought my 5ft Howard from an estate sale where the owner ran it behind a 300 Utility. I use it behind a SMTA. It is still fairly speedy but does a good job even in sod.
 
<a href="http://s140.photobucket.com/albums/r16/Wardner/?action=view&current=KBfenders013.jpg" target="_blank">
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Mark, I am in the process of collecting parts to "creep" a 650. It involves installing a second countershaft in the transmission. It will be powered with a hydraulic motor. I will need to buy an off the shelf spur gear and build an air shifter. Everything will fit inside the transmission. The "stealth" installation would probably not work on smaller tractors due to space. On other tractors (H and M), you might have to hydraulically power the belt pulley or one of the bull pinions. It would have to be quick detachable or use some sort of dog clutch.

It just takes a little math and the performance tables from the hyd motor mfg to figure it out.
 
Wardner,

I"m a little daft in the head...but I think a larger torque tube could be fabricated using heavy wall well pipe by welding flanges on the ends to bolt to the engine/bell housing and rear end. the hydro tranny would be tucked inside and the standard transmission done away with entirely. A reservoir could be hung on the side of the new "tube".
 
Mark,

The link below is a start on your "C Hydro". Should fit inside IH castings. I didn't go mfg's site so I don't know if it has variable speed output. Another problem is you won't have a PTO. That would require some additional engineering and fabrication.
eBay hydro transmission cheap
 
Bob: Scrap the roto tiller idea, there is no possible way your going run that with a Farmall C or SC. To start with you don't have Live PTO. Secondly, no one has ever manufactured gears to make it go slower, without affecting PTO speed.

If you determined to have the roto tiller, go buy one of those 35 hp British diesels with live PTO, 3 point hitch and dual range transmission. It will be less money than what you are trying to dream up.
 
Wardner: The British built 275, 414, 434, etc with dual range transmission will run much slower than TA equipped Farmalls. I don't have the exact figures, but had a neighbor get into this with a roto tiller. He traded his 300U off for B-414. Lowest gear is about 65-70% of a 300 in 1st and low TA. I know he said 414 was much better than 300. The MF-35 will do about the same.
 
Wardner,

Interesting...but accounting for my ignorance....where is the input/output shafts on that unit pictured on ebay? The dimensions certainly seem within the parameters of MAYBE squeezing inside of the original torque tube....but then you have to figure a way to mount it in there. Heavy wall drill/well pipe would be much eaiser to work with to fabricate a new torque tube and weld the mounts inside of.

A PTO on my Super A is meaningless to me. It is a dedicated cultivating tool and nothing else. I gave up trying to make it into something else..especially when I have a utility tractor on hand.
 
If it were me, and is isn't I would opt for an engine on the rototiller rather than different tractor. As far as that goes if you are good on the hydraulic lever, just let the tiller down a little bit then next pass little more till you get it to where you want it. Thats about the way older rear tine walk behind tillers work. Oh well just my thoughts. Bernie Steffen
 
Hugh,

I am sure the dual range tractors make a better tiller tractor. However, your neighbor could have put 460, 504, 606 gears in the 300 and had a very slow tractor with a working TA in low range.

I have another SMTA into which I installed 560 gears. If I remember correctly, it goes 3/4 mph at full throttle in first gear and low range. The 560 first gears have the same tooth count as the M low-low first gear. As strange as it may sound, I have yet to run the tiller behind it. My 504 also has a very slow first. I think it would be suitable as well.

I like threads like this. It's fun to build tractors the way you want them. There is nothing more boring than going to a tractor meet and seeing row after row of H's and M's that are built the same.
 
Wardner: I'm sure one could do that in the past 20, however in 1963 used gears for Farmalls just weren't available, hadn't been many parted out by then.
 
Mark,

I didn't do any research on that setup. The auction notice was in my email inbox via an eBay alert. The seller should have included more than one picture.

The best way to make the hydro is to drive a variable displacement pump off the flywheel. That would be a piston pump with a wobble plate that varies the piston stroke. The motor(s) would attach to the tranny mainshaft or one at each final drive housing. With the two motors out of the tractor centerline, you could get a pump with both input and output shaft connections. The output would go back to the PTO.
 
Hi Everyone,

I just want to thank everyone for their reply's, didn't mean to cause such a fuss. Though I did learn a thing or two. Yes, I have a Farmall C and Super C. Thanks!

Bob
 
(quoted from post at 13:27:16 02/16/09) Mkirsch: Reduction gears in the torque tube of a transmission driven PTO also reduce the speed of the PTO.
Click to expand...

Yup. Same problem with a hydro.
 
Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that the 300 utility will go alot slower with the Farmall ring and pinion. My modified SMTA has a top speed of around 11-12 mph. Kinda like a two cvlinder JD.
 
Hugh,

That's true but they were available through parts window. Maybe it wasn't economical. Depends on trade-in value and cost of the British tractor
 
mkirsch,

I am on dangerous ground here as I don't have any experience with IH hydros. The PTO rpm should have a constant ratio with engine rpm. Isn't the pto gear drive?
 
Hi Hugh,

Where do you live in Canada? I have been up around Windsor, and St. Thomas area on business. Lots of farms and flat country. Thanks!.

Bob
 
(quoted from post at 18:11:51 02/16/09) mkirsch,

I am on dangerous ground here as I don't have any experience with IH hydros. The PTO rpm should have a constant ratio with engine rpm. Isn't the pto gear drive?
Click to expand...

The Hydros use a single shaft driven off a flex plate in the flywheel. This input shaft drives through the PTO gears to a counter shaft much like a regular clutch tractor. The counter shaft drives the rear hydraulic pump (larger tractors) and the PTO. The input shaft also drives the hydro charge pump and the hydrostatic transmission pump.
 
Bob: I'm near Strathroy, on the other side of that flat land. As you go east from here it gets more rolling. Southwest to Windsor from here, you could almost pull a train with your Super C.
 
Wardner: Trading up was quite reasonable in those days. I'll bet he trade for $1,500. and got a diesel in the process. In 1958 my 130 was $1,850., 63 560D came for $3,800. and by 67 656D was only $4,200. Times were good back then, we were making money farming.
 
Wardner: The IH manufactured Hydros had the same Independant PTO as the gear drive tractors. I have a feeling what Kirsch is refering to is placing a hydraulic motor and pump in the torque tube of the SC, which would slow the transmission driven PTO. I'm not certain that is what he is saying, just assuming.
 
Say Hugh just waht gears do ya want as im not too far from a place that will make em. They make em for pullers so they dont break. It Wwould be fun to have a super slow low for an A.
 
Bob: You didn't cause fuss, it was just waiting for a place to happen and you came along. We all learn something in these discussions. Take Kirsch, he's home building a hydrostatic drive Super A. By leaving it in neutral, he can hook hydraulic motors to the outer end of pinion shafts, at top of final drives. He'll hook the pump for that to right angle pulley drive, leaving the pto shaft free for driving the tiller.
 
Hi Hugh,

Your farms arn't anything like the little dairy farms we have around this part of the country. I can go north east, then there are some large potatoe farms here in Maine.

I haven't been up your way for a while, but would like to see your operation sometime. Thanks!

Bob
 
Bob: My operation is not much anymore, I'm just a retired old fart with 3 little Farmalls, 3 acres of garden and grass.
 
Hi Wardner,

If my memory serves me correctly the transmission gears are all spur? Where do you get your gears? Will the shifting forks fit properly? I am a transmission, gear, and bearing person. Though I really think Hugh is right, it is going to be more trouble than it is worth. Thanks!

Bob
 
I'm going back to the "To hell with it' mode. Hehehe! I'll just continue to idle the SA so slow I can hear every time it fires and cover up half the stuff on the first plowing.

I had a JD 1050 utility with a 4 speed hi-lo transmission and that little Yanmar 33 horse diesel would get down and crawl. If the JD 900 HC offset was geared anywhere close...and I'd bet they had the same tranny, it would be hard to improve upon..just add power steering.
 
Bob,

The gear for the 650 is a standard 5 pitch, 13 tooth spur gear. I have forgotten the pressure angle but it might be 14 degrees. That is also standard. The bore is bigger than I want so my bearing supplier will order it without the bore. The smallest 5 pitch gear is 11 tooth but that makes the diameter too small. It can't be any smaller than roughly the diameter of the CharLynn geroter hydraulic motor. The motor is an H series with the largest displacement in its series for slower speed. It has way more torque than I need. Shifting will be done with a small bore - small stroke air cylinder. That is one of the reasons I put the Bendix air compressor on the belt pulley gearbox. The small sliding gear will mesh with 1st/rev gear on the mainshaft when it, as well as the rest, are in their neutral locations.

I am not working on it now as the tractor takes too much room in my shop. I am working on smaller projects now.
 
I was wondering about something similar.
Farmall 350, wanting to mount a trencher tool to it. Could the TA be modified so it acts as neutral when activated and then power applied to the belt pulley with a hydraulic motor? Would the engine driven oil pump suffice or should I put a larger one on the PTO driven tool?

Next could a similar set-up be done with a 56-86 series using a PTO driven hydro pump and motor from a combine and tied into the transmission through the front wheel assist output ? Would a front wheel output from a snoopy fit a 856 0r 756?

Vin
 
Gonna play devil's advocate here.

Wasn't there a setup that hooked a chain sprocket to the inside of the bull gear on the Cub and A for driving planters? COuldn't you drive the right wheel with a hydraulic motor on those models?
It won't work on a C but maybe you could find a way to put a sprocket on the axle shaft or hub and chain drive it from a hydraulic motor?
Depending on where you mount the motor you just pull the chain and it's ready to go back to work on other jobs.
 
Hi Hugh,

Ya, I hear ya, I am 66 this month and will be receiving my first social security check about the end of the month. Still working though as there some things that need fixing up around the home. Also I want to do more with tractors and gardening just to see how much organic food I can really grow. Times just may get really tough with this economic situation.

Bob
 
I have work with gears, transmissions, bearings, gear boxes. In my travels I have seen all kinds of gear reduction boxes. If the tractor is gear reduced to travel slower, and the PTO goes slower, couldn't you place one of thoses small gear reduction units in reverse to speed up the PTO? I never thought of doing this before, may be I will ask some questions when visiting some of these gear companies?

Bob
 
Hi Scotc,

On a Case SC they are chain driven. I would like that set up on my Farmall C as it is like direct drive and both wheels are pulling all the time.
 
Hi Hugh,

I am in the office and my wife thinks I am working to secure the next field service job. Ha Ha! Well anyway what the heck are we doing? Are we getting our tractors ready for the field or to send them to the moon with some engineering project? I do have a client that manufactures the drive units for the Lunar Rover. I have another client in the midwest that manufactures large gears for trucks/tractors, and they have a hydo system that should work in our tractors, but I think we would not like the price. They have some with (2) PTO drive units coming out of them. I will look at them a little closer next time any ask lots of questions. I am not a pioneer they have arrows in their backs. If I want to go with a hydo system I will purchase one from someone that makes them for trucks/tractors and if it needs some modifications I will take it from there.
You guy's are doing good keep trucking, and Thanks! because it helps with my decision making.

Bob
 
Didn't the H come with two different 1st gears. One a super slow.
I had two H's once, a 1940 and a 1952 and seems like one of them had a slower first gear.
 
Hi Dellbertt,

No, I don't believe so. There was a special that they expermented with, but never came into production. There was only that one if my memory serves me correctly. Thanks for you in-put.

Bob
 
Wardner,

That is all interesting, but labor intensive and time consuming. Pressure angle usually standard 14' and 20'. I would enjoy doing that as I am a mechanic, though the tractors need to be field ready soon. My object is to plow/harrow up 3-4 acres. I am going to forget the roto-tiller for now. In the fall if all goes right may be a Farmall B275? Thanks!

Bob
 
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