I Got Told 12 Volt and Starter Don't Mix - Warning

Switched my SC to 12 volt last year, starter went so bought a new one, around $185.00. After about a month starter was lagging, slow so took it back to the Tractor suppply store and got another starter.
A week ago new starter seemed to seize up, wouldn't turn at all. I took starter to a starter repair shop. They took starter apart while I was there. The guy walks out and asks if I am using it on 12 volt, I say yes, they say you shouldn't. He brings the starter out and turns it upside down and all the parts fall on the counter, this showed that they don't mix. It was the big spring in there that broke. He said some starters will handle 12 volt but a lot won't.
So the guy at the repair shop says I need a clutch type not spring type drive in the starter. I have read about them clutch type drives on here a couple of times but it never really sunk in what the difference was. Now I know.
I just wanted to let everybody know that if having problems with a starter, especially if tractor is switched over to 12 volt then make sure if having problems make sure you get the clutch type drive. If have starter rebuilt make sure they put the clutch drive in.
I am just trying maybe help people save some money. I could have saved myself at least $185.00 if I never just went and bought a new starter figuring that would solve any future problems just to have to spend another $80.00 to have to have a clutch drive installed in the new starter. Could have had the clutch drive installed in the old starter and would have been good to go.
Sorry for the long post but hope my story helps somebody save a buck, money can be kind of tight now days.

Thanks for the reminder. The sdvice on the forum has been to do just that on all IH starters with the old style drive.
Thanks. Jimn

...not because of 12 Volt, but because the clutch type is THAT MUCH BETTER.

Usually what kills starters on 12V is the crank and crank and crank and crank and crank and crank and crank and crank and crank because the engine isn't tuned up or the operator doesn't know how to start the tractor. If your tractor fires right up the starter will last a long time on 12V.

I have had my Super A an H both on 12v with orginal starters for years now and never had any problems at all. My tractors start good and I do not stay on the starter very long. If they do not crank fast I start looking for the problem. A farmall tractor when tuned right will crank fast.

I guess if your having trouble I'd advise swithing the drive. Kinda like advising the guy that can't keep a clutch in his pickup to buy an automatic.

Oldtractorfan: The clutch drive for these starters has been around for 40 years. I installed my first one 20 years ago. I've been on YT close to 10 years and have advocated the clutch drive since I arrived.

Your starter guy is partially correct, however not 100%. Three items can be the downfall of a 6 volt starter converted to 12 volt. Tractors slow to fire up require more cranking, and poor quality and worn out starter drives allow the starter to spin wildly too often and too long.

The third matter is C-113 and C-123 engines crank much too easily once compression drops below 80psi. This allows the starter to spin too fast, and the centrifical force can dislodge whindings of the armature. This is probably not as crucial with larger engines.

I suspect most problems associated with 6 volt starter problems running on 12 volt can be one or a combination of all 3 of the above. I recently encountered the centrifical force on armature with my 130. Tractor has been on 12 volt for 18 years, has had a clutch drive all those years. It fires up very quickly even at -20. During the past year compression has dropped to 55 psi all cylinders. It doesn't fire up quite as quickly as it once did. You guessed it, one day this past fall I cranked it on starter thinking switch was on. My starter rebuilder is satisfied combination of low compression and numerous periods of extended cranking caused this.

I might add, I converted my 6 volt Super A to 6 volt alternator same time as I did my 130 to 12 volt. Far fewer problems with SA than 130. These little tractors do not need 12 volts for starting. They do need good charging systems. In 1956 my dad and I started a 6 volt Farmall 300 at -40F, completely unassisted by any artificial help. Remember in 1956, that 300 had a one year old battery and relatively new charging system.

My 240U (123 engine) was switched to 12V before I bought it and I'm certain it's still the 6V starter. Maybe I need to be careful with cranking it too long... glad I read this post. The carb on mine does not have a choke cable attached, but when it's warm, it starts right off with the throttle just barely cracked open... when cold it needs the throttle completely closed.

Around This past Christmas I went to move snow with my Super M and noticed it wouldn't turn over. Took the starter apart to find out that the metal "bridge" that connects the windings together had become undsolderd due to the starter being 6V and the tractor being 12V. Unfortantly I orderd a new 12V starter before I could take a close look at the old one, I was able to resolder the connection and put it back on the trator and it worked like new. So now I have an extra 12V starter when the one I have on it finally dies.
-David Goode

12 volt conversions are a band-aid that covers up some other underlying problem. Whether that problem is poor cables, poor connections, or a poor charging system depends on the tractor.

My two H's start fine on 6 volts. Dad's C and A start just fine on 6 volts. And, my W-9 will fire right up on 6 volts as well, here's proof:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3bm6UPbLUM

Sorry I can't add anything about the type of starter drive, as I haven't been around long enough to have trouble with one...

Six volt tractors are fine if you have right cables keep all connections clean and tight with fully charged battery. As for as starters not working on 12 volts we starting switching tractors to 12 volts in fiftys and have had at least a couple of 12 volt letter series around for over fifty years and have always gotten pretty good service out of starters. Back in fiftys our tractors would run at least 1000 hours/year.

The main reason for changing over to 12v, in the late fiftys and onward was cost of items to change with. There were lots of junk chevys sround so the cost was low. Then you didn't have to remember to turn the charge down, most of us had no idea how long to keep it on high charge and just got to busy doing whatever it was, and ruined lots of batteries before their time, more cost. Also some af the rebuilt tractor starters have old chevy parts in them and some of those parts won't hold up to long on a tractor

I use a 6 volt starter (no solenoid) on an H with a 12 volt battery. It works fine. C113's, 123's simply do not need 12 volts, I have 2 of those. Just maintain the 6 volt system. Also, it has been stated many times on this forum that 12 volts will not hurt a starter -- I have read about the different clutches, but have not had that problem either.

I am 28 and my fathers Ford 841 has had a 6V starter on a 12V battery as long as I can remember. It probably takes 5-6 seconds to start even in Louisiana's bitter 40 degree winters 8) Most likely the battery cable was corroded or they had a hard time finding 6V batterys... I am sure even it being a 44 hp gasser it would spin on 6V easily. Old 6 and 8 cylinder vehicles from the past (lower compression) cranked on 6V, much more engine than any 6V tractor. I do not know where I am going with this... I am tired. Goodnight.

Charles

I sure would not say the guy is wrong, but I could show him probably in excess of a hundred tractors within a ten mile circle that have been getting by for years. I don't even give it a thought, but if I get a different tractor--it is 12 volt from day one. Maybe just pure luck.

I could also fimd twenty that don't use a resistor on the points. I have a WD Allis that is very touchy with the resistor being needed, but that is the only one that has bothered.

To add to my earlier post, I was raised in Iowa and I can remember 6 volt tractors being pretty hard to start in the winter, even ones that had 2 parallel batteries. Left outside, they could be difficult. We usually left a chore tractor, we had a C or Super C at that time, in one side of the barn so it would be warmer. Several years ago I had an Oliver S-55 and with a 6 volt battery, I could get one good dependable winter out of a new battery here in Kansas. As long as I could still buy 8 volts, they would last 3 or 4 years without a problem.

Wow, all of a sudden 12 volt is a bad thing? All of my tractors are on 12 volt, one has been that way for some 22 years now, and have yet to replace a starter on any of them. And no, it wasnt a "band-aid" fix on any of them.

I ran the SM for a year with the 12v battery in it, and then it sat outside most of the winter, and it fired up. It ate a 6v battery in about 12-14 months regardless. The voltage regulator is still in it from the year before switching to 12v too. It ate that with every other battery if I was lucky to get that much life out of it. It's still got that same regulator but the tractor has sat most of the last 3 years too.

Nah, 12V is not a bad thing.

Like many things, it is frequently misunderstood and often blamed for problems that it didn't necessarily cause.

Right on, Steven! Most 6V tractors start fine when everything is up to snuff, as it should be on any tractor. Right now my 6 volt SC Case is sitting outside hooked to an auger and has started on every sub-zero morning so far.

The tractors in the 40-50 HP range like the M Farmall, Oliver 88 etc. were stretching the limit for 6V when new, but now most of them have oversized pistons, so a 12V conversion is almost a necessity for them. Jim

I learned a bit from this post. Never knew that them clutch drives have been around for 40 years. Was told they worked far better then the spring ones.
I do agree the small engines don't really need 12 volt. Even on 6 volt my SC always started the same way. In summer one or 2 turns and tractors going. When temp drops down to 10 to 30 degrees a touch of choke 2 or 3 turns and going. From there down to 30 below its full choke, push clutch in, 3 or 4 turns and going. Will happen to stall after starting though when below zero depending how I work the choke. Sometimes push choke in a bit too far a bit too fast. One thing I am carefull not to do is to hold starter any longer then 4 turns.
Changed mine to 12 volt because of problems with 6 volt and cost of fixing besides figuring the problems so a more modern system seemed to make sense. I had everything I needed for the change laying around the garage so figured I might just as well, only took a few hours.
My Dads M is 12 volt, one SA 12 volt and one SA 6 volt. They all start in the winter.
I am in Ontario Canada by the way. Just had to plow my driveway yesterday and today and had to use an old spring drive starter and tractor started with no problems, temp 5F. I have the feeling that its just the repeated starts stress the spring till it lets go.

Oldtractorfan: Where abouts in Ontario, got to meet anyone who has SC, M and two SA in the family. I'm in Kerwood.

I'd strongly suggest going 6 volt alternator with these C-113 and C-123 engines. The guy who did my 130 starter was recommended to me by Forest Farm Eq. He told me he had seen this problem of dislodged whindings of armature quite often in these little engines, rare in the H, M, etc. He told me he always asks if the tractor is 6 or 12 volt. Without question it is always 12 volt.

He is convinced these starters can work on 12 volt in these little engines providing the engine and starter drive are close to perfect, providing good maintenence is carried out. Sounds reasonable to me as I never had any problem until this 130 dropped in compression.

Don't let anyone try to convince you a 6 volt alternator is difficult to find and costly. When I bought my 6 volt alternator for my SA, I told the guy it had to be quick as I needed the tractor and it has a new 6 volt battery. He said, "Quick with that old generator is two weeks as I don't have the parts, quick with an alternator is 5 minutes, as all I have to do is change two wires in a off the shelf GM Delco alternator. Same price as if it were 12 volt." He did and I was out the door in 5 minutes.

I've never looked back, that little SA has 18 year on it now with 6 volt alternator. That new 6 volt battery that was in the tractor when I installed the alternator lasted 13 years. Almost twice the life I'd ever got from a battery before or since. I credit that to the excellent charging I get from that 6 volt alternator.