251069 versus 354898 and the Difference Is.........

Bein' I'm HARDHEADED and I don't know what GIVEUP means I spent most of today takein' classes on why I can't put the inside "PARTS" from a 354898 in a 251069. Both blocks a few feet from each other....I measured them every way I can think of. One thing I found I'll come back to. 354898 has 3 1/4 " piston with what I'm guessin is steped tops. I may have missed something "hidein'out in Plainveiw" ( OLD Texas sayin') but the length, width, and hight of the blocks are the same. I pulled a sleeve from the 354898 ( what I'm comein back to ) and the sleeve fits ...to a point. The point is the bottom web in the block where the seal goes is too small and won't let the sleeve go all the way down. This is all the difference I can fine, If some of Yaw'all know more Please let Me know before I take off on My next wild run. I have a decent machine shop, old lathes, Bridgeport, surface grinder, so on. First thing I thought of is , That bottom web has already been machined once so I know it can be done....I'll set up on My Mill and give Her Hell, Then the saner side of Me prevailed for a few minutes and tomorrow I'm headin' over to the machine shop that does the engine work for the Catapillar folks and see what He will charge to open the holes up and cut a seal grove. By now all Yaw'al know I'm tryin' to save the several hundred bucks new sleeves and the rest of the works will cost Me....HANDS,...What do You think, is this doable?

Thanks
Wild Bill

Bill: What you discovered about the sleeve not fitting is the difference. Of course it's doable, but is it practical. Around these parts the machining would be twice the cost of a kit.

I agree with Hugh, don't know what you are fretting about, but for the price of machine shop work, at $100.00 an hour, you can about buy sleeves and pistons and do it right and not have a cobbled up mess. My opinion.
Jim

Mr. MacKay, many thanks to You and JT for Your replys. Bearin' in mind I want to use the 3 1/4" pistons. Why? Because I have them. Lookin' thru the parts on Y T I don't see any sleeves will fit My 251069 and that will let Me use these pistons. Thought had crossed My mine to turn My sleeves down, bottom would be alful thin. Plus yesterday was a day I just felt like would be a good day to go to school. Now by the time I buy a sleeve and piston kit for a smaller bore ( that I'm sure would work perfect, 3'' bore plowed anything I needed plowed ) I'm out $293.04 plus s& h. with all due respect Sirs, If a machine shop can get $600 to bore out and grove 4 holes I need to load up and move where Yaw'll live. I guess I grew up in a different world from most folks, If We didn't have it, We tried to make it. In the 50s, first car I bought was a Model A sedan, few months later still too Young for a drivers license, I got a 37 ford coupe, built a 3 jug manifold for it, learned about progressive linkage right off the bat. Replaced the little 60 engine with a Lincoln/Mercury A/B engine, three jugs, shaved head ,3/4 grind cam and ruled the North La' roads till Chevy Hit with their 283 with a 4 barrel.( sorry , I don't know how I went from Farmalls to Fords.)Guess life is all about schoolin'
JT, Rest assured if I 've got anything to do with it the job won't be cobbled. The only time I've ever doubted my macheinein' abilites is when I walk By My scrap pile. I might come across as a fool to some people, been a few times I've been sure I was one, But just a little background, I was one of the first in this country buildin' damascus knives, I invented the 30 Wild Bill ( 30/06 case, neck shortened, Shoulder 35 degrees ) and I can run with the 300 Win mag and use 6 grs. less powder and less recoil. Best yet might be neckin' the 9x23 to .224 and gettin' 2500fps from a 5" barrel 1911. Yaw'll can find Me on Pistolsmith.com...See Wild Bill Caldwell Veiw From The Hills...some of My other cartridges on there...41 Sam ..44 LiZ
Again, Thank You for Your Replys, Mr MacKay, I knew if there was any other differences in the block You would know. I'm headin' out to the machine shop now, We'll see what the man says, Who knows, Might not be as high as You predict and there might be others wantin' to try this. " LIFE IS ALL ABOUT SCHOOLIN'

Thanks'
Wild Bill

Now i may not be up on Part #'s But if ya are going thru that much work then WHY just stop at 3 1/4 . As i am also one of those people that like to see what we can build out of the junk pile . But when i do something like this i really don't like to trash out a good block as there are enough bad blocks out there . I have even been knowen to go dumpster diven for parts . Like getting used 855 cummins sleeves out of the dumpster and a set of Mack sleeves from the Mack dealer out of his dumpster for barnyard engineering projects that were done under the cover of darkness.

Bill: I'm not sure you can bore block 251069 large enough to fit the 3-1/4" sleeves. There was discussion back 2-3 years ago about this. That chap Stan 22xx knows the answer, he's tried just about anything possible with these blocks. I haven't seen him on here much lately. He is the guy that has the so called 230 Utility in the photo adds, about 2 weeks ago.

Why punish yourself this way, 354898 are the most plentiful of these blocks, $250 to $300. will buy you a good one most any day. Your Super C head plus all other parts will fit.

You dont have to remove much around the seal. You need both sleeves out so you can measure one to another to see how much needs to be removed. A friend of mine did that so he could use the 3 1/4 domes went to 340 head and rockers milled 125 off the head was getting 42 on the dyno and every time he pulled and getting it broke in was gaining HP. Says now when he pulls into register for pulling they say heres that ****B again.Tells them he fond it in a barn in Vermont but it sure runs good dont it.

Hugh, just wondering did IH make a limited # of C blocks in 1950 that used the same sleeves as 354898 block.

Dave: I think if that happened, the block would have been labeled 354898 as a part number. An interesting note about block number 354898, the ones used in Super C followed the C sequence of serial numbers, while the block 354898 used in late SA used the early SA sequence of serial numbers. I'm refering to block stamped numbers.

The model stamped in block was FAAM for SA and FMC for SC, until Super A1 at tractor serial number 356001. All those 1,957 Super A1 blocks were stamped FMC and used the SC sequence of engine serial numbers.

Then in the 100 and 200 and they used block 354898, however the engine serial numbers started over again at 501. The block changed again in 130-230 to number 366204, and again in 140-240 to number 367825. These engines in 100, 200, 130, 230, 140 and 240 have a common sequence of serial numbers, starting with engine number 572 in 501-100, engine number 663 in 501-200, engine number 36046 in 501-130, engine number 36001 in 501-230, engine number 65032 in 501-140 and engine number 65032 in 501-240, and that sequence continued to the last 140 in 79.

The figures I have, block number 6342 DH used in A and B, block number 251069 used in all C and SA to tractor serial number 310299, block number 354898 used in all SC, SA after tractor serial number 310300, all 100 and 200, block number 366204 use in all 130 and 230 and block number 367825 used in all 140 and 240. Of those 5 different blocks, none of the sleeves will interchange. There are other block part numbers, that were new replacement engines.

I live in a machine shop (SCSU), and teach (education) and I say go for it. Use a nice carbide flycutter in a nice a tight stiff setup (probably from the bottom) index everything, and cut the grooves. (no guarantees, and additional scrap metal is an educational deposition) JimN

Gene what did you use for a O ring? Maby i will try it on my BN