Farmall M 12v consersion succesful.....for a few minutes

tcanthonyii · Jan 4, 2009

Ok so I finally after a week of cussing got the M converted. I fired it up and the ammeter ran high for about 30 seconds and then backed off to just above charging, which I would call normal since it's charging the battery after the start etc. Anyway I was warming it up and putting the bucket back on the loader. I walked around to check on it and the ammeter was pegged! The batter looked to be boiling over as well. Assuming the wiring is correct since it did work for a bit I'm thinking either bad batter or bad vr in the alternator. The battery is used and I had it load tested at a local parts store. After that I charged it in the garage last weekend. At that time I did notice water on top of the battery and it was making noise. I didn't think much about it as I've had that happen before and then never have a problem again. The alternator is a rebuilt unit from Autozone.

Any Ideas? Before I run it again I'm going to at a minimum unplug the the wiring from it but would like to get it fixed as this seems dangerous!!.

Thanks

T.C.

Bus Driver · Jan 4, 2009

A good voltmeter across the battery terminals would really help. The symptoms indicate seriously high voltage, probably 18 or greater.

tcanthonyii · Jan 4, 2009

Ok so I appologize. I didn't even see the other fellows post for nearly the same problem.

Anyway I did go out and look at my ammeter and it didn't say whe amprage it was but the p/n on it is 378424R91. Someone may know what that is.

Bus Driver -- I agree with putting a volt meter on it but I need to find a daredevil friend. That thing was seriously boiling. It was violent!

Thanks

T.C.

tcanthonyii · Jan 4, 2009

A few quick googles and the 378424r91 is replacable by a 30-0-30 gauge. So i'm thinking I'm safe to assume it's either a 20-0-20 or 30-0-30 gauge. putting in a 60-0-60 guage would probably be relevant here since the alternator is rated at around 60 amps. Bad battery then?

When I was looking at the ammeter and it went up then down I think it was at a lower Idle. I can test that but starting the tractor at low idle again and watch the guage.

T.C.

caterpillar guy · Jan 4, 2009

Well if you have a volts/ohms meter. You could just put it inline with the battery while it is running. With it on the DC volt setting and read what you have for voltage. Then with it disconnected switch it to amps and read that to find out what your output is there too.

Janicholson · Jan 4, 2009

A shorted cell in the battery will force it to become an 8 volt battery. when charged on 14 volts, it will boil!! Put a different battery in it and check the charge voltage. Used batteries were taken out of something for a reason!. JimN

mkirsch · Jan 4, 2009

Take the alternator in and have it checked. It sounds like the VR went out. Why is the question. Defective? Mis-wired? Both possibilities.

One dumb question: Did you use a 12V battery? You didn't go through all that and then mistakenly put the old 6V battery back in...

tcanthonyii · Jan 4, 2009

mkirsch -- It is a 12 volt battery. Had 12.5 volts right before I put it in the tractor this afternoon.

janicholson -- I pulled it out of a car at the junkyard for 15 bucks. It's got a 30 day warranty on it so I can always take it back. I bought 2 there that day for 30 bucks total. That's less than half the cost of a new one and I was on a tight budget for this one. Will the battery blow if it is boiling?

T.C.

Janicholson · Jan 4, 2009

Yes it sure can!!
Take one out of a running vehicle and see if the battery is the issue! (I bet it is) JimN

Janicholson · Jan 4, 2009

Yes it sure can!!
Take one out of a running vehicle and see if the battery is the issue! (I bet it is) JimN

Owen Aaland · Jan 4, 2009

You really need to get a voltage reading both before you start it and after it is running.

A fully charged battery, with surface charge removed, should be 12.6 volts, 2.1 volts per cell.

If the battery is boiling at 14.5 volts or less, replace the battery.

If the voltage is above 14.5 volts check the wiring and connections. Make sure that the voltage sensing lead has battery voltage on it at all times. If the wiring is OK replace the alternator.

tcanthonyii · Jan 4, 2009

Ok. Included is my very bad art skills and impatience using a computer when not at work. (I'm a computer, network phone guy at my work).

Voltage readings are 12.5 before I put the battery in the tractor this afternoon
13.33 as we speak
18.8 with engine running at idle.

I believe this to be wired correctly. Tell me otherwise. The warning light comes on when I pull the ign. switch and goes out whet the tractor is running.

T.C.

mdaitc · Jan 4, 2009

wiring looks good - have done a few with the same setup, except used a diode in place of the warning lamp.

That 18.8V seems tooo high - that's probably causing the battery boiling problems - best get the alternator tested - oreilly/autozone/napa/whatever should test them for free. Typically 14V-14.5V is a charging "voltage" that is more the norm - go measure on on your car/truck. http://www.solarnavigator.net/battery_charging.htm has a good write up of batteries and charging.

If you're looking for an alternator to fit under the hoods - try an (Ultima) 14231 (ultima is the local brand here) - off a 78-79 Nissan/Datsun 620 Pickup - it's Hitachi made, about the same size as the generator. I've used this one a 450 and a 330U without modifying hoods - cost $55 new with warranty...

Owen Aaland · Jan 4, 2009

Without a resistor across the leads of your lamp, your system will not start to charge if the lamp should fail. Using a resistor equal from one to two times the resistance of the light bulb will allow the bulb to still light but also ensure the voltage at the alternator necessary to allow charging to start up.

As per your drawing ,as long as you have a good connection to the regulator and battery voltage at terminal 2, your problem is in the alternator.

tcanthonyii · Jan 4, 2009

I just did the 10si trick. It fits good and I can use it as a tensioner. Belt tightened I have 3/8 inch or better of clearance. It works out really nice. I usually look for about 13.5v when running. Stupid rebuilt alternators!!!! I hate taking off that damn hood. I may try doing it w/o taking it off. Is it just me or do they not make them user friendly! Doesn't help either with the loader on it.

TC.

Brownie 450 · Jan 5, 2009

You mentioned a rebuilt Delco 10 SI?? From what I am reading, the voltage regulator is shorted--producing all the voltage & amperage that the alternator can put out. I have rebuilt over 50 of these alternators, & when they require a new voltage regulator, the critical time for failure of a new reg. is right after initial start-up [usually 2 or 3 minutes]. I have had 2 or 3 regulators fail upon start-up -- 2 from shorting [maximum charge] & 1 from going open [no charge].
1 other thing to check---after disconnecting the wire to the #2 terminal on the alternator, try connecting a jumper wire from the battery + terminal to the terminal on the alternator which reads battery voltage --- #2 [currently has a wire connected to the hot terminal of the alternator].

mkirsch · Jan 5, 2009

"User friendly" wasn't invented until about 50 years after your M was built, though I gotta say an M is a whole lot more user friendly than these new tractors.

Yeah, your alternator blew its cookies. A test at your local auto parts store will confirm. What's a rebuilt? $35-40?

If you can find one, a panel-mount LED works better than a light IMHO. They used to have these great chromed plastic ones at Advance auto that fit right in the fuse hole on the electrical box, but I haven't been able to find one again. LEDs rarely burn out.

tcanthonyii · Jan 5, 2009

Don't have a fuse hole on my box. It's fused on the actual switch it self. What you described about the failure is right on to what happened to me. It's under warranty so I'll just swap it out tomorrow when I take it off.

T.C.

Brownie 450 · Jan 5, 2009

To MKRISCH--- the older hoods aren't that bad to get off. The 1066 has to have the left side hood taken off just to get to the air filter. The 806's had the handy side access panel to get to the air cleaner. Go figure. IH just didn't seem to have it all together sometimes. Kind of like going through the field with the disc out of the ground.

mkirsch · Jan 5, 2009

I know what you mean, but pretty much anything that has more than a half dozen moving parts is going to be like that. Up until the last 10-15 years, engineering a complex product with any foresight for serviceability was possible, but took forever because there was no way to tell if things were going to work without actually building prototypes. All that extra engineering time and prototyping costs money and takes time. You might end up with a well-engineered product but at many times the cost, and several months/years after, the competition has already cornered the market with their "good enough" effort.

tcanthonyii · Jan 5, 2009

My worst part is I'm always trying to do it myself and then around the loader which makes an extra stretch to get to it. If my wife was able or my neighbor it wouldn't be so bad. now when I get around to painting it then it will be a two person only job!

T.C.

tcanthonyii · Jan 5, 2009

Ok so the alt is off and ready to be taken in tomorrow. I did find an easy way to pull the hood of though.... Straddle the front bolster and sit on it while pulling the hood off!

T.C.

Janicholson · Jan 5, 2009

I've been there. I'm glad it was the alt issue. JimN

tcanthonyii · Jan 6, 2009

Ok so success was mine tonight. Took the alt back into autozone where they put it in the test machine. The freeking thing wouldn't even spin up. It would just start the spin up then it would fail it. Put the new one on and it's like a champ. Never better. Go the lights hooked up too. first time inthe 7 months I've had the tractor that I can use the lights!!! Ran the tractor till it warmed up and then shut it off.

Hind site is 20/20. The original alt would squeal when spun. This one did not. I think I got a dud of an alt from the get go.

Thanks for all the help.

T.C.

Farmall M 12v consersion succesful.....for a few minutes

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