Napa coils didn't work! M Farmall

Dave Hollrah

New User
I've been peppering this forum w/ electrical questions over the last few days as I'm finishing up an M rebuild.

The reason the tractor was sidelined was bad tires and ignition. So after taking care of the tires and stuck pistons i had to tackle the original problem of no spark. Well it turns out the original coil was the culprit but Napa didn't help with their coils. Two new 6v coils speced for an M Farmall and no spark from either. I had to grab a known working 6v coil from another M to confirm this.

The Napa coil brags about some kind of internal resister.

Any ideas about what's up w/ Napa coils?

BTW I'm ordering a coil off this site
 
Not sure the coil you have but if its stated it has an internal resister it is meant to operate on 12 volts. The resister cuts 12 volts to 6 volts.If you have a 6 volt system you want a 6 volt coil with no built in resister. The coil should still throw some spark tho, maybe too bad coils??
 
I did power the first coil w/ 12v to start with and did the coil only test, meaning test for 12v on pos term on coil and switching current on the neg terminal going to points. That checked out but didn't get any spark from coil lead to block when cranking.

So I'm clueless really. Maybe the first one was bad and the second one I powered at 6v so that one didn't work because of the internal resister???

Just would like to get a solid handle on the whole ignition business once and for all.
 
Dave: I always shop at CaseIH for all IH electrical and ignition parts. How much longer, I'm not sure, their quality is slipping as well. I just call them the best of the worse.
 


All "tractor" coils in reguards to our older I.H ones have a resister built into them.

Meaning:

If you use a automotive coil you will be useing a external balast resister to do the same thing.

You can use a auto coil with out it but the coil will get hot .

So like Hugh said stick with the correct parts and you won"t have a problem.

I use a M.S.D coil and brain box on my pulling tractor [12 volt] and it uses a external balast resister.

Maybe your coils are fine and you need to look at the ign. switch [ power on/off].

All the power on that tractor goes threw that switch lights, gauges, starter etc.

I had a problem like yours with the tractor, it turned out that switch was bad.

It must be replaced with a high amp one , the little 15 -20 amp switchs don"t cut it. I ended up installing a 50 or 60 amp one and zero problems.
 
Dave, I gotta first educate you in the basics concerning coils, then we can troubleshoot your problem::

1) A 6 volt coil will be labeled "6 volts"

2) A full true straight 12 volt coil may be labeled "12 Volts" OR "12 Volts NOT for use with external ballast" THEY BOTH REQUIRE FULL 12 VOLTS (no ballast resistor) TO WORK CORRECT

3) HOWEVER a coil labeled "12 Volts requires external ballast resistor" is in reality only a 6 volt coil AND INDEED NEEDS THE EXTRA EXTERNAL BALLAST JUST LIKE IT SAYS

4) If your tractor is 12 volts you must use EITHER a) A full true 12 volt coil OR b) A 6 volt coil PLUS an external series voltage dropping (12 to 6) ballast resistor. If its a 6 volt tractor you must use a 6 volt coil AND NO BALLAST OR THE SPARK WILL BE WEAK

5) What some people call a 12 volt "internally ballasted coil" is in reality a full true 12 volt coil (intended for 12 volt tractor unballasted) which has a primary winding resistance in the neighborhood of around 2.5 to 3.5 ohms or so BUT (for MANY coils at least) NOT BECAUSE IT HAS ANY INTERNAL DISCRETE RESISTOR STUCK IN, BUT THE RESISTANCE IS DUE TO MORE PRIMARY WINDINGS/LENGTH/COILS OR HIGHER RESISTANCE WIRE. Its true some coils were made that actually had an internal discrete "resistor" but MANY of the tractor vintage coils were dealing with that are 12 volt that people call "internally ballasted" DO NOT have a seperate "resistor" inside simply more primary wire/length/coils or higher resistance wire to arrive at the 2.5 to 3.5 ohms primary resistance. They used coils with internal resistors in early automotive days but most tractor coils in the years were talking about didnt have any seperate internal pure resistors......CAVEAT its still possible some internal ballast (OR THERMISTOR OF SOME SORT) might be designed into a coil such that if the ignition were left on the points dont draw as much current and the coil NOT overheat and burn up, but Im unsure if NAPA has such a unit, I would have to see their specs to determine that buttttttttt that does NOT change the above about 6 and 12 volt coils in general.

Whewwwwwwwww

Next if the coil fires when you have voltage on its high input (from switch) terminal with the output grounded but then when you unground the output (interrupt curent flow) it fires out the top tower (via coil wire to within 1/8 or so from ground) BUT THERES NO FIRE OUT ANY CAP TOWERS THERES A CAP OR ROTOR PROBLEM,,,,,,,,,

Since your question is so wide open to save time I will copy n past my Ignition Troubleshooting Procedure which will diagnose the cause of no spark.........


TROUBLESHOOTING A BATTERY POWERED EXTERNAL COIL TYPE IGNITION SYSTEM:

PRELIMINARY CHECKS:

(A) To see if it happens to be a cap n rotor problem and to see if at least the coil is firing, remove the coil wire from the distributor (leave coil end intact) and place its bare end to within 1/8 inch from tractor iron, turn her on n crank her over, and see if she jumps that gap with a good visible blue spark?????? If so but the plug wire ends (from wire end to 1/8 inch to frame) or the plugs themselves don’t fire, its a cap n rotor or plug wire problem. If the coil wire isnt even sparking, see below.

(B) Next open the cap and see that the points are gapped correct and indeed opening and closing as the engine is cranked and the distributor shaft rotates and MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOT BURNED OR PITTED OR CARBONED UP BADLY !!!!!!!!!!!! If so, running a point file between them to clean them up might make her run again HOWEVER that’s only a temporary cure, so if that cleaning makes her spark, INSTALL N GAP NEW POINTS. In the event they appear good but only gray oxide coated, non abrasively clean/buff/polish them using say a dollar bill or shop cloth etc. and see what happens.


MORE TROUBLESHOOTING IF ALL THE ABOVE STILL FAILS TO MAKE HER SPARK


1) THE VERY FIRST THING YOU GOTTA HAVE is voltage to be present on the coils high supply (NOT to distributor) terminal when you turn the Ignition switch ON. If not she cant ever fire, but in the event the ignition switch or circuit/wire down to the coil or any Ballast Resistor is bad or open, you can HOT WIRE it by jumping a hot ungrounded battery voltage source to the coils high input supply (NOT to distributor) side n see if she runs then???? If she fires hot wired, you could have a bad ignition switch ((That can happen, when Ignition is on, the switches IGN terminal must turn hot)),,,,,,,or an open Ballast (if it has one) or a bad/open wire from switch to coil.

If the switch is good, if you turn the ignition switch on and place a test lamp on the coils high (NOT to distributor) terminal SHE MUST LIGHT UP. If not again, look for an open Ballast Resistor (if it has one, it should read around 1.25 to 2 ohms across its terminals) or bad/open wires from the switches IGN output down to the Ballast (if it has one) and distributor.


2a) When the Ignition switch is turned on, voltage should appear on the coils high input side. That would be 6 volts on a straight 6 volt system or 12 volts on a 12 volt non external ballasted system, or around 6 volts on a 12 volt system that used a 6 volt coil plus an external Ballast Resistor and the coil is good and the points are closed and they and ALL wiring is good.

2b) To insure the coils low voltage primary winding is not bad/open, use an ohmmeter and measure its DC resistance between its lil + and -terminals. If its an open circuit (no continuity) its bad/open and will NOT work. It should measure around 1.25 to 2 ohms or so if its a 6 volt coil and maybe 2.5 to 3.5 if its a 12 volt internally ballasted coil. NOTE CAUTION have all leads and any voltage source DISCONNECTED FROM the coil for this simple primary winding continuity test.

3) Next, place your voltmeter or test lamp over on the coils other low to distributor terminal side, turn her on and crank the engine over.

4) A test lamp there should flash ON (when points are open) and OFF (when points are closed) as the engine is cranked slowly.

5a) If the lamp never comes on there, the coils primary is bad/open,,,,,,,,,,or the points are never opening,,,,,,,,,or theres a shorted/bad condensor (remove its lead to points and see if lamp comes on, if so, bad shorted condensor or its wiring),,,,,,,,or the points wire is shorted,,,,,,,,or the distributors side pass thru stud is grounded (use ohm meter to test that),,,,,,,,,or the points may have a shorted spring.

5b) If the lamp never goes off as engines cranked, the points are not closing or are bad,,,,,,,,or the wire or circuit is missing from the distributor to the points,,,,,or the distributors not well grounded to the tractor.

She cant fire the coil unless its low side is getting a conductive ground return path via closed points and then the circuit is open when the points open.

Be sure the condensor or its wiring is NOT shorted out and see if the lite comes on (when points open) with the condensor disconnected. If removing the condensor makes her spark, replace the condensor.

SUMMARY

Be sure the points are closing fully and open on high cam and ARE NOT BURNED OR PITTED OR CARBONED UP BADLY,,,,,,,theres voltage present on distributors high side at all times when ignitions on (or its a bad switch or open ballast or bad wiring to col),,,,,,,voltage on coils low side flashes on and off as distributor is cranked,,,,,,,,,condensors not bad/shorted,,,,,,,,no shorts in wires to points and no shorts in pass thru side out distributor stud,,,,,,,,coil has continuituy.

You may luck out n just need a new set of points. If the coil wire fires (see above) and the plug wire ends to 1/8 from frame but NOT the plugs, they are badddddddddddd. Check them BOTH.

Good Luck n God Bless, post back any questions and your findings and any questions.


John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired electrical engineer who usually lurks over on the Mother Deere boards versus over here on the “dark side”.
 
First, a big thank you to all who have answered/ been patient w/ me.

Okay, I'll narrow the variables down a bit.

Here's how Dad (76 and still throws 15 cord of poplar in his boiler every winter.)has this tractor set up

1. 6v tractor but runs with a 12v battery
2. No gen/alt-fires off battery (yep, charge at night)
3. No switch. He likes it simple (turn the tractor off-pull the ign wire off the battery.
4. Voltage to coil reduced to 6v w/ external ballast.
5. Fact-old 6v coil works this way (from another M), 2 new 6v coils from Napa don't. These coils are the ones that their books say work. These coils say "No external coil required" on the case.

Hopefully this weeds out some variables.

I'm thinking I'll run out into the parts department (pasture) and grab a 12v coil out of an old chev PU and throw that on the M. The other thread re. 6 vs. 12 volt ignition came up with no difference to the points/condenser so I'm good just putting a 12v coil in with this setup.

Hey, this is farmin...we're no purists.

We like farmalls because they just keep working. They ARE the original Energizer Bunny.
 
Okay Dave, based on your update heres the answers once more, although what I posted below should have already covered this:


1. 6v tractor but runs with a 12v battery

"THE IGNITION IS 12 VOLTS TO START WITH THEN"

2. No gen/alt-fires off battery (yep, charge at night)

3. No switch. He likes it simple (turn the tractor off-pull the ign wire off the battery.

4. Voltage to coil reduced to 6v w/ external ballast.

"THAT MEANS YOU NEED TO USE A 6 VOLT COIL NOT A 12" (or else toss the ballast and use a 12 volt coil)

5. Fact-old 6v coil works this way (from another M),

"THATS RIGHT, SINCE YOU HAVE THE VOLTAGE DROPPING (12 to 6) BALLAST, A 6 VOLT COIL SHOULD WORK


2 new 6v coils from Napa don't. These coils are the ones that their books say work. These coils say "No external coil required" on the case.

IF THE NEW COILS ARE INDEED 6 VOLT COILS I WOULD EXPECT THEM TO SAY NOOOOOOOO EXTERNAL BALLAST butttttttttttttttt 6 volt coils dont usually carry such a label since they dont normally use any ballast anyway (sure theyre not 12 volt internally ballasted coils???)

HERES WHAT COULD BE THE PROBLEM:::::::::::

Those new NAPA coils may be 12 volt coils what some people refer to as "internally ballasted" and if thats so, they indeed SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY EXTERNAL BALLAST butttttttttttttttttttttttt SINCE YOU ARE STILL USING THE OLD BALLAST YOURE ONLY PUTTING 6 VOLTS TO THEM (versus the 12 they need)

ONCE MORE (already posted below) HERES WHAT YOU NEED TO USE SINCE ITS A 12 VOLT BATTERY:

EITHER a) A full true 12 volt coil AND DO NOT USE ANY EXTERNAL BALLAST PERIOD (like if you try an automotive 12 volt coil)

OR b) A 6 volt coil BUT LEAVE THE EXTERNAL BALLAST

I suspect those NAPA coils may be 12 volt internally ballasted and since you still have the ballast youre only putting 6 votls on a 12 volt coil causing a weak spark

Once you figure out the coil (this post or my previous) thing my Troubleshooting Procedure posted below will provide the other answers

best Wishes, let us know !!!!!!!!!

PS if you have an ohmmeter, the way to tell if the NAPA coils are 6 or 12 volt is to measure the primary resistance between the lil + and - terminals....... 1.25 to 2 ohms is probably a 6 volt coil.........2.5 to 3.5 is probably as 12 volt coil

John T
 
I havent either, NAPA sells decent equipment in my experience, if he simply tosses that Ballast Ima thinkin it may work fine cuz if the NAPA coil is a 12 volt (as I suspect, 6 volt coils dont usually say nuttin about ballast on them) it needs the full 12 volts NOT any ballast ahead of it ........Or if he leaves the ballast and has another good 6 volt coil laying around he might save a few bucks....

Take care there Rusty

JT
 
A little more info

Initially I didn"t run a ballast on the first coil. This was the way Dad always ran the tractor- 12v to a 6v coil. It would run warm but it would run. New 6v Napa coil didn"t work with 12v (John T, distributor passed all your trouble shooting tests, thanks by the way for all your input)

I had prevoiously updated his other M with a ballast, again 12v to a 6v coil. No problem.

Because I was stumped on this rebuild I decided to trouble shoot with the other working tractor. The 2nd new Napa 6v coil went directly from the box onto the working tractor. Again, this working tractor (M) has a 12v battery, external ballast and a 6v coil working great. Out goes the working 6v coil in goes the new 6v Napa coil (6 volts printed right on the side) no spark. Simply, old 6v coil works.......new Napa 6v coil doesn"t. Both ballasted externally.

So first coil didn"t fire on 12v second didn"t fire on 6v. I suppose nobody actually buys 6v batteries so the industry have modified the 6v components to operate on 12v industry standard?

Note: Also printed on the case of the new 6v coils is "no external resistor required" John T, would this be the same as saying "No external ballast required?" If this is the case the first Napa coil failed to fire on straight 12v current (distributor test passed power to pos term, switched power to neg.)

ANYWAY, I"m going to throw a 12v coil on it, yes, and chuck the external ballast,(I had that figured all along) I know now the condenser and points could care less about 6 or 12 volts.

Re. the Napa coils, at least the first was a nonop plus they probably are built different than the older 6v coils. In any event, I was relieved to have been able to return both as they were $43 +tax.

Dave
 
If I bought a coil marked 6Volt and "No External Resistor Required" I would take those two together, as in "No External Resistor Required when used on 6 volts". If used in a 12Volt circuit, it would still require an external resistor to lower the voltage to the 6 Volts it was designed for.

That said, get a VOM and check the resistance; it may have been born bad or mislabeled.
 

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