#@$%*##$ charging system

1945 Farmall h rewired to original specs and double checked. Polarized too.6v gen cleaned up and looks good ,brushes etc. Showing discharge on ammeter .I wired it for the original cut out system. Do I have a voltage regulator on it? 3 prongs.If so do I have to wire it up like the super H? Big changes?

Aggravatin', ain't it? My initial thoughts . . .

In my experience, cutouts have all had three terminals (BAT, GEN, and FLD), regulators have had four (the fourth being L[oad]). Caveat there is that some folks have told me that's not always true, but it seems useful as a starting point.

Is it possible that you have the leads on the back of your ammeter crossed? If you have lights on the tractor, the ammeter should show discharge with the engine off and the lights on. If it's showing a charge, swap the wires on the back of the meter to the opposite poles.

Battery grounded on the + side?

Cut out switches will never have a terminal for the field control wire. The field control wire goes to the light switch where it is grounded through the resistor in the low charge position and direct to ground in the high charge or lights on positions. In this system it is necessary to have a good ground path from the light switch all the way to the battery.

If it is truly a cut out switch and it has three terminals, A or G will go the the armature terminal on the generator. B will go the the ammeter. L will go to the fuse on the light switch.

If you have a voltage regulator, (one with a F terminal) then the VR must have a good ground path back to the battery.

My '47 W9 had to have the control box grounded to the steering wheel post. Paint was the problem.

Owen, I'm looking right at IH's diagram of a cutout relay, the one with three terminals, BAT, GEN and F. You've described the wiring for a cutout to a tee, but if that third terminal on what you are calling the cutout relay really does say L and not F, then it sounds more like one of those three-pole regulators. The only regulation on a cutout relay is in the H/L selection on the four-position switch. Maybe John T or Bob M or somebody can jump in here and bail me out, cause I'm beginning to think that maybe the three-pole regulator (I've never seen one to get my hands on it to test it to see how it works) will work with the four-position switch, just giving you two layers of regulation. But I'm still wondering where the wire from the field post on the genny would go in the setup you describe.

In IH's diagram for the cutout relay, the GEN terminal on the cutout is connected directly to the armature post on the generator. The BAT terminal on the cutout runs back to the same terminal on the ammeter that is connected to the fused terminal on the lights side of the four-position switch. As for the F terminal on the cutout, it should always have a wire that runs back to the resistor in the switch that selects high or low charging rates. From there, you have the option of connecting the wire from the field post on the generator to either the F terminal on the cutout (which gives you the selection of high or low charging rates through the switch) or grounding the loose end to the generator frame for a constant, non-adjustable, high rate of charge.

Scotty, Ima thinkin you pretty much have it, heres my input:

1) A Full Fledged Voltage Regulator may be EITHER 3 terminal (BAT ARM FLD) OR
4 terminal (BAT ARM FLD LOAD)
The difference is if its only a 3 terminal VR loads get voltage off the ammeter but if its the 4 terminal VR with the LOAD terminal, loads are fed from there instead.

2) The Cutout Relay is usually ONLY 2 terminals BAT and GEN/ARM buttttttttttt some IHC Cutout Relays also have that extra F terminal AS YOU SAY WHICH I BELIEVE (Jim and Bob M can confirm or correct me if Im wrong)

3) YES, the gennys Field needs a ground return path in order for field current to flow to create the magnetic field so if theres no VR to do that, its gets its ground (dead for High charge, resistive for Low charge) via the LHBD light switch.

4) Soooooooooooo if you dont wanna use the LHBD switch Ima thinkin the F terminal on those 3 terminal cutout relays can indeed provide a field ground buttttttttt its always at the high charge (dead ground) rate.

Im going to give him a few troubleshooting tips up above

NO WARRANTY I dont have much experience on the older IHC cutout relays mind you, ESPECIALY ones with the F terminal??????????????

John T

I think you have a cutout relay (sure wish I had a pic) and if theres ONLY ONE coil/relay inside it, then Im fer sure thats all you have. However, if it has 2 or 3 coil/relays inside then its a full fledged Voltage Regulator and yes it wires different then the cutout relay systems.

Where is the gennys FLD post wired now??? Up to the dash to a LHBD switch ORRRRRRR to a F terminal on that relay?? REGARDLESS when shes running use a jumper to dead ground the Gennys FLD post n see if she charges then??? If so BUT NOT OTHERWISE its either the LHBD switch isnt wired right or dont have a good ground,,,,,,,,,or the wires bad/open from FLD on genny up to the switch....

As a precaution insure that BOTH the Genny and the Relay/VR have a good to frame ground (use a jumper wire to give BOTH a good ground n see what happens) ALSO did you POLARIZE the genny?? if not do it

Heres a part of my Troubleshooting Procedure to get you started and I will post the URL Link to the whole thing. You need EITHER the gennsy FLD post wired to a good working and grounded LHBD switch or to the FLD terminal on a good working and grounded VR OR ELSE NO CHARGE


http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=farmall&th=665110
TROUBLESHOOTING

1) For a good working Gen to get to and charge the battery, it has to have a path usually from the Gens ARM post,,,,,,,,,,to and through the Cutout Relay (between its GEN and BAT terminals, regardless if on a VR or Relay),,,,,,,,,up to the Load (NOT to battery) side of the Ammeter,,,,,,,,,to and through the Ammeter,,,,,,,,,,from BAT side of Ammeter to ungrounded battery terminal, often via the starter lug post. Is yours wired that way or equivalent ??? The ammeter should read hot battery voltage on BOTH terminals, does yours??? Even if an ammeter were stuck (but still continuous) as RPM increases the battery voltage should rise from 12.6 to near 14 volts and/or the lights glow brighter (half that on 6 volt systems). Have you tried that in case the ammeter isn’t working right?????

2) If the above is so, the BAT terminal on the VR or Cutout Relay MUST ALWAYS READ HOT BATTERY VOLTAGE. Does yours??? If not, the Gen cant get to and charge the battery.

3) The Gen to VR (if it has one) wiring is as follows:

BAT on VR to ammeters load (NOT battery) side

ARM (or GEN) on VR to Gens Armature post.

FLD on VR to Gens Field post.

(L) Load (if you have a 4 wire VR) up to BAT supply input terminal on switch to feed loads like lights and ignition.

WIRING ON CUTOUT RELAYS: They wire BAT side to ammeters Load terminal,,,,,,GEN side to gens Armature post. On cutout relay systems, the Gens Field post is wired to the light switch where it gets a dead ground for high charge or a resistive ground for low charge. Therefore, there must be a good connection from the Gens Field post up to the switch PLUS the switch is good and it’s well grounded !!!!!!!!

4. THE GEN AND VR OR CUTOUT RELAY MUST BE WELL GROUNDED AND THE BELT GOOD N TIGHT. If any doubt, run a ground wire from the grounded battery post or clean solid frame member direct to the Gen and see what happens????????????????????????????

NOW, if the Gen and VR are grounded,,,,,all is wired correct,,,,,,,,BAT terminal on VR or Cutout Relay is HOT,,,,,,,,Belt is tight,,,,,,,,,Ammeter is good n continuous n works but she wont charge, have you had the batteries tested lately????? Is there electrolyte above all the plates and no cells have a gray or milky appearance?????? A bad battery may not accept a charge you know!!!!!!!! If the battery checks okay, proceed below to see if its a Gen or VR problem (AFTER you have insured the wiring per the above)

TO DETERMINE IF ITS A GEN OR VR OR CUTOUT RELAY PROBLEM

5. a) VOLTAGE REGULATOR SYSTEM: With the tractor running, temporarily ground the Gens Field post to case. If she charges then but NOT otherwise, the VR may be bad, or a wires missing from VR's Field post to the Field terminal on the VR, or the VR isn’t well grounded.

b) IF IT’S A CUTOUT RELAY SYSTEM and she charges only if you dead ground the Field but NOT otherwise, its either a bad switch or the switch isn’t well grounded or else the wires bad or open from the Gens Field post up to the switch. INSURE THAT GOOD SWITCH GROUND AND WIRING

6. If she still don’t charge, leave the Field grounded and jump a wire across from the VR or Cutout Relays BAT terminal over to its GEN terminal (jump by passes the cutout relay) and see if she charges. If then but not otherwise, a VR's cutout relay isn’t working correct (maybe points burned/carboned) or a Cutout Relays NOT working or not wired correct.

7. With the 2 steps above, you have basically by passed the VR or Cutout relays functions, so if she still don’t charge, you're left with a bad battery or wiring or the Gen itself.

http://www.ytmag.com/cgi-bin/viewit.cgi?bd=farmall&th=665110



John T
Troubleshooting Procedure

Thanks, John, for jumpin' in.

I"d be curious to know if the gauge indicates zero volts with the engine off then shows negative charge after start and varys with RPM. If it does then just switch the pos and neg ternimals and see what happens.
If it shows pos or neg with the engine off then you have a short or incorrect wiring.

There is lots more theory knowledge in here than what I have, but I like to first run test the gen to make sure it is giving off a charge and then work backwords.

(quoted from post at 14:00:02 11/14/08) Cut out switches will never have a terminal for the field control wire. The field control wire goes to the light switch where it is grounded through the resistor in the low charge position and direct to ground in the high charge or lights on positions. In this system it is necessary to have a good ground path from the light switch all the way to the battery.

Click to expand...

actually the originals do have an Field terminal. It has a resister to ground to complete the field circuit in applications where there was no lights, therefore no light switch, but needed to charge battery for the starter. The field terminal is not normally used, however, since that particular application is rare. If the light switch field resister is burned out you can run a second wire to the F terminal on the cutout to provide the low charge function.

You need to have ground on the generator and also the reg and also the lite sw. Use an Ohm meter to see that all the componets are grounded. System is positive ground. Check your regulator underneath and it should say which ground the regulator needs if you do have a reg and not a fastory cut-out. The factory cut-outs are no longer available or at least i have not been able to find one as they were built by Delco Remy. I have 6 Bs and As that still are original and work just fine.

the end result is negitive charge on the ammeter.Here is what I have,+ on battery to ground. - on battery to starter switch.same post on starter swith to - on ammeter. +on ammeter to fuse on back of 4 position switch. same fuse to on off switch , on/off switch to- on coil,+ on coil to distributor...+ on ammeter to bat screw on voltage reg or cut out. gen screw on voltage regulator/cut out to A stud on generator. F screw on vr/cutout to F stud on generator. F stud on generator to field resistor on back of 4 position switch. 1. is this wired right? 2. If it is and I have to start spending $$$$ wouldn't I be better off going to a 12v altinator system than sinking $$$$ into a 6v generator ,voltage regulator or cut out or whatever it is?

Sounds like you're wired up right and if you haven't already, this would be a good time to run through John T's list. If that indicates that you are charging but the ammeter still shows a discharge, it may be as simple as having the wires crossed on the ammeter. Are + and - labeled on yours? That's only a fix IF testing otherwise shows that you are in fact charging. If not all you'll have done by switching them is to have your ammeter show a charge while you're still discharging.

One little glitch that's a long shot but worth mentioning, especially if you show a charge with the wire from the F post on the generator grounded to the frame but not otherwise.

My BN did something similar to your tractor. It would charge with the four-position switch on H, but not on L, and I ran it down to the field resistor being bad. All it is is a fine wire wound around a fiber strip. The wires are supposed to be connected to the hollow rivets that secure the strip to the back of the switch body. On mine, the multimeter showed no continuity between the two rivets. Hmmmm. Testing the winding between the rivets did show continuity. Taking it one step further, there was continuity between one end of the winding and the rivet on the other end, but not testing the other direction. Though it looked good to the eye, one end of the winding was not making electrical contact with the rivet. I fixed it with just a drop of solder. Worked good after that, in fact had me worried as it made for a lot of smoke out of the electrical box until the residual crud burned off the resistor. Had me quite excited there for a few minutes!

If it should be the field resistor that is making your problem but you find it not to be reapirable as easily as mine was, you could rig a new resistor (Radio Shack) in its place. I can't find it in the archives, but one of the guys might be able to chime in with the specs for the replacement.

As a last resort, if testing shows your relay to be bad try cleaning the points in it before throwing it on the scrap heap), OEM sells replacements. You could also switch over to a regulator (as opposed to a cutout). All that would do is take away the fuction of the L/H positions on your switch. Either of those options will be easier and less costly than cutting up your hood to make room for an alternator and converting to 12V.

+ and - are marked on back of ammeter. also tried to run a wire from the + on the battery to the F , no luck.

F on the relay or on the generator?

F on the vr,but Ive got F on the vr hooked to F on the generator,and F on the generator hooked to the field resistor on back of 4 position switch .

also noticed that when tractor is running if I turn the lights on the points on the v.r. come together . cleaned them too.

What happens if you disconnect the jumper between F on the genny and F on the regulator/relay, and just run the wire from the F on the genny back to the resistor on the switch?

Any difference in charging between the H and L positions on the switch?

no difference w/o the jumper. mild difference between l and h

Theres a problem. Undo the wire from the gen F to the switch. The 4 position switch isnt needed wit ha regualtor and simply becomes a light switch.

I know you said you cleaned things up. Anything that runs to that switch that needs grounding grounds through the switch body and therefore the box and anything connecting the box to the chassis. Have you got all those connections (like the nut holding the switch to the box . . .) clean. If that wire from F up front back to the resistor can't find a good ground through the switch, she won't charge hard.

That said, you did say you ran the wire from the field straight to the battery + post, so it may not be related, but is worth a look and a try.

Have you been through any of John T's checklist yet?