Need ELECTRICAL Help ASAP.

I was loading manure into the spreader hooked to my 460u. I left it idle while I was loading it. When I was finished I saw that the 460 had died. Not uncommon, upon rare occasion it has died in the past...but would always start back up. I'm not familiar with electrical systems other than fouled plugs on snowmobiles. (no spark at the plug meant change the plug and back to the trails) here I have no spark at any of the plugs, I sprayed all the plugs, wires, connections at the dist. w an electrical spray, and still nothing. I disconnected the wire from the coil at the distributor held it close to some metal and could not get spark there either. Please lead me down the right path to getting this thing fired up again.

Thanks,

Butch

Have you checked the points to see if they're still opening and closing? Rub those points with some 320 wet or dry until they're shiny. It they're pitted, replace them. Check at the coil with the points open for battery voltage. You need the ignition switch on too. Use a test light or volt meter. If there's no voltage at the coil, check the ignition switch for voltage.
Could be a broken wire if there's none at the switch. It may may be fed off the starter solenoid if it has a solenoid. That's the small terminal that's close to the battery cable on the solenoid. Hal
PS: Very windy here in MD today.

You didn't say when this happened.

If it will start back up again after a few hours and run for a while before dying again in a similar fashion, that would be classic coil failure.

There might also be fuel issues but, assuming it's electrical, it might also be your condensor gone south.

Hello Hal,

Windy here and 40 Degrees. 20 last night, the first ice making cold night.

Just to set me straight, there should be a wire from the ignition to the coil? Also, where are the points (as I said, not nuch elec. experience) The dist. cap looks new in the inside, black clean plastic and shiny metal, What is the center thing inside the dist. that rotates called?

Butch

P.S. Wrapping up high moisture corn here 80,000 bu in a bunker silo and a 25x90 harvestore nearing capacity.

This happened about 1 1/2 hours ago. I've got 1/3 tank of gasoline. By the way I'd been running it on/off for 3-4 hours before. I checked the gas at the carb. when I choke it and crank `er then stop I get gas running out of the carb where I had disconnected the air intake. could I still have gas/ carb probs though?

Butch

Butch, Yep there should indeed be a wire down from an ignition switch to the non distributor side of the coil and its hot when the ignition is turned ON. The other small coil terminal wires to the distributor. Of course, the big coil wire out the top high voltage tower is what connects to the cenetr of the distributor.

If you remove the distributor cap theres the rotor tip inside which directs the spark to the correct plug terminal and the points may be located under that upper outer dust cap (if it has one) which you need to remove if you dont see the points cuz they are under it.

They need to be gapped correct (on one of the high cam lobes) and they need to open and close as the distributor rotates and the high n low cam lobes pass by. If the points are badly burned or pitted or carboned up badly Id replace them but in the meantime if you file n dress them down smooth n clean n even she may work, its worth a try, just clean n file (get carbon or pits cleaned off) n gap the points n see what happens.

If all else fails to produce a spark, follow my Troubleshooting Procedure


TROUBLESHOOTING A BATTERY POWERED EXTERNAL COIL TYPE IGNITION SYSTEM:

PRELIMINARY CHECKS:

(A) To see if it happens to be a cap n rotor problem and to see if at least the coil is firing, remove the coil wire from the distributor (leave coil end intact) and place its bare end to within 1/8 inch from tractor iron, turn her on n crank her over, and see if she jumps that gap with a good visible blue spark?????? If so but the plug wire ends (from wire end to 1/8 inch to frame) or the plugs themselves don’t fire, its a cap n rotor or plug wire problem. If the coil wire isnt even sparking, see below.

(B) Next open the cap and see that the points are gapped correct and indeed opening and closing as the engine is cranked and the distributor shaft rotates and MAKE SURE THEY ARE NOT BURNED OR PITTED OR CARBONED UP BADLY !!!!!!!!!!!! If so, running a point file between them to clean them up might make her run again HOWEVER that’s only a temporary cure, so if that cleaning makes her spark, INSTALL N GAP NEW POINTS. In the event they appear good but only gray oxide coated, non abrasively clean/buff/polish them using say a dollar bill or shop cloth etc. and see what happens.


MORE TROUBLESHOOTING IF ALL THE ABOVE STILL FAILS TO MAKE HER SPARK


1) THE VERY FIRST THING YOU GOTTA HAVE is voltage to be present on the coils high supply (NOT to distributor) terminal when you turn the Ignition switch ON. If not she cant ever fire, but in the event the ignition switch or circuit/wire down to the coil or any Ballast Resistor is bad or open, you can HOT WIRE it by jumping a hot ungrounded battery voltage source to the coils high input supply (NOT to distributor) side n see if she runs then???? If she fires hot wired, you could have a bad ignition switch ((That can happen, when Ignition is on, the switches IGN terminal must turn hot)),,,,,,,or an open Ballast (if it has one) or a bad/open wire from switch to coil.

If the switch is good, if you turn the ignition switch on and place a test lamp on the coils high (NOT to distributor) terminal SHE MUST LIGHT UP. If not again, look for an open Ballast Resistor (if it has one, it should read around 1.25 to 2 ohms across its terminals) or bad/open wires from the switches IGN output down to the Ballast (if it has one) and distributor.


2a) When the Ignition switch is turned on, voltage should appear on the coils high input side. That would be 6 volts on a straight 6 volt system or 12 volts on a 12 volt non external ballasted system, or around 6 volts on a 12 volt system that used a 6 volt coil plus an external Ballast Resistor and the coil is good and the points are closed and they and ALL wiring is good.

2b) To insure the coils low voltage primary winding is not bad/open, use an ohmmeter and measure its DC resistance between its lil + and -terminals. If its an open circuit (no continuity) its bad/open and will NOT work. It should measure around 1.25 to 2 ohms or so if its a 6 volt coil and maybe 2.5 to 3.5 if its a 12 volt internally ballasted coil. NOTE CAUTION have all leads and any voltage source DISCONNECTED FROM the coil for this simple primary winding continuity test.

3) Next, place your voltmeter or test lamp over on the coils other low to distributor terminal side, turn her on and crank the engine over.

4) A test lamp there should flash ON (when points are open) and OFF (when points are closed) as the engine is cranked slowly.

5a) If the lamp never comes on there, the coils primary is bad/open,,,,,,,,,,or the points are never opening,,,,,,,,,or theres a shorted/bad condensor (remove its lead to points and see if lamp comes on, if so, bad shorted condensor or its wiring),,,,,,,,or the points wire is shorted,,,,,,,,or the distributors side pass thru stud is grounded (use ohm meter to test that),,,,,,,,,or the points may have a shorted spring.

5b) If the lamp never goes off as engines cranked, the points are not closing or are bad,,,,,,,,or the wire or circuit is missing from the distributor to the points,,,,,or the distributors not well grounded to the tractor.

She cant fire the coil unless its low side is getting a conductive ground return path via closed points and then the circuit is open when the points open.

Be sure the condensor or its wiring is NOT shorted out and see if the lite comes on (when points open) with the condensor disconnected. If removing the condensor makes her spark, replace the condensor.

SUMMARY

Be sure the points are closing fully and open on high cam and ARE NOT BURNED OR PITTED OR CARBONED UP BADLY,,,,,,,theres voltage present on distributors high side at all times when ignitions on (or its a bad switch or open ballast or bad wiring to col),,,,,,,voltage on coils low side flashes on and off as distributor is cranked,,,,,,,,,condensors not bad/shorted,,,,,,,,no shorts in wires to points and no shorts in pass thru side out distributor stud,,,,,,,,coil has continuituy.

You may luck out n just need a new set of points. If the coil wire fires (see above) and the plug wire ends to 1/8 from frame but NOT the plugs, they are badddddddddddd. Check them BOTH.

Good Luck n God Bless, post back any questions and your findings and any questions.


John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired electrical engineer who usually lurks over on the Mother Deere boards versus over here on the “dark side”.

You should have one wire on the coil that goes to thr dist. and one that goes to the ing switch / battery. the points are in the dist. the part that rotars around is called the rotor. if you have a test light see if you have voltage on the battery side of the coil. if not its probaly the switch. you can run a jumper wire from the battery to that terminal and that should give you spark. if you have voltage there then I would say its going to be one of the following the coil, points or the condensor.

That's the rotor and the points should be under that. You need to bump the starter to make sure the rotor is still turning. Hal
PS: Is there a ballast resistor in that wire from the switch to the coil?

I wouldn't care what the neighbor's say. Hal

Thanks every one I will try all of this and hopefully not have to pull my fine red tractor out of the yard with my green one and have my green neighbors see me doing so!

Butch

I performed the recommended tests and came to the conclusion that the coil is dead. I have spark on both of the small terminals but nothing coming from the wire to the distributor. Is there another way to test the coil to be sure it is junk? Also I have a 12V system but between the coil and the ignition there is this white plaster like thing with two male terminal studs coming out of it. does this thing mean I don't have a 12v coil?

Butch

That sounds like a ballast resistor. I would install Napa's coil IC14SB cost about $18.00. It has a built in resistor so remove the inline resistor if you use their coil. I would try another condenser before buying a new coil. It could be causing the no start. Hal

It is a resister to reduce the voltage to 8 volts which is necessary for many 12 volt systems.

There are two kinds of coils on 12 volt systems
One, the kind you are wired up for, is a 6 volt coil that requires an inline resistor (the ceramic piece you see) to reduce the voltage into the coil.

The other takes a 12 volt input but has the resistor built into the body of the coil to reduce the voltage, eliminating the need for the inline resistor.

If for some reason your inline resistor went bad, that could have fried your existing coil.

So, two thoughts. If you go with a 6 volt coil, I'd replace the resistor (they're readily available) as part of the project. The alternative is to go with the 12 volt coil with the built-in resistor, in which case you want to take the resitor( the ceramic piece) out of the line in.

Thanks ScottyHOMEy,

This tractor has had some rewiring work done to it. It has a 15A inline plug-in type auto fuse between the ign and the resistor. Should I remove that too? is it a good safety thing or is it even the correct size?


Butch

The fuse in that wire is of no real value. 15 amps is 3 times what the ignition will draw, (I would take it out. I do believe in a fusable link in the wire going from the amp gauge to the starter switch. This should be a 25 amp fuse link for a generator, and a link about 5 amps more than an alternator can make (Ratings are often on the side, stamped in). JimN

Butch, we gotta take this one step at a time.

SHORT ANSWER YES that means you OUGHT to have a 6 volt coil NOT A 12 but I cant say sittin here what you actually have?????????

1) If theres a fuse between the IGN switches IGN output and the Ballast Resistor (that white ceramic/porcelain 2 terminal box between ign and coil) it obviously has to be good n working and continuous (not blown)..... the current draw is around 4 amps so a 10 to 15 amp fuze (depends on wire size used) would be fine

2) If its a 12 volt tractor and uses that in line series voltage dropping (12 to 6) ballast then YOU NEED A 6 VOLT COIL NOT A 12. Or else discard the ballast and use a full true 12 volt (some lay persons call internally ballasted) coil n be done with it. Its input wires to the switch and output to the distributor. NO BALLAST NEEDED

3) If the coil is bad as you claim, Id buy a new full true 12 volt coil and toss the old ballast.

4) Coil testing: This was already posted in my Troubleshooting Procedure...... If you use an ohmmeter the coils primary resistance as measured between its lil + and - terminals should be around 1.5 ohms for a 6 volt or 3 ohms for a 12 volt.... IF ITS AN OPEN CIRCUIT (near infinity ohms) ITS BADDDDDDDD The HV secondary should be like 5k to 10 k ohms and if its open its badddddddd. HOWEVER even if it passes both tests it can still be bad cuz it breaks down at High Voltage and/or temperature. Thsi test only shows if its definitely baddddddddddd not if its totally good.....

5) If you ran my troubleshooting procedure below it shows how to tell if non firing is a coil etc or a distributor cap n rotor problem so I will take you at your word the coil is bad. Remember as posted below a volt meter or test lamp on the coils output (to distributor) terminal usually reads zero cuz if the points are good n working n closed that point gets effectively grounded out.

Since you determined the coil is bad you just as well get a new 12 volt n go for it although its more often a points or condensor or cap or rotor problem etc before its the coil

best wishes, let us know how it works out

John T

John T,

My bill payin' job kept me til after all business hours for parts.

I will be sure to reply back with my findings. I sure appreciate your time in explaining to the details. I need the details to get through lots of things. As I was told by a disliked highschool student counsellor "...you don't have the mind of an engineer."

Thanks Much!!!


Butch