Starting a McCormick-Deering 10-20

Dave Koenigsfeld · Oct 16, 2008

I got a donor tractor for two 10-20s that I am restoring. This donor motor is loose. I rinsed the gas tank out and bled the fuel lines and carb with fresh fuel.

I primed the cylinders with fuel. I have confirmed that there is spark on cylinder #1.

I hooked up the spark plug wires according to the 10-20 owners manual (the wires were attached to the wrong terminals according to the owners manual).

I have not confirmed the correct timing yet. What else should I do to get this old girl firing??? I would love to get it going and then paint the motor and transplant it into my tractor.

Thanks,
Dave

molinebob · Oct 16, 2008

You would not happen to know where there is a carb and mag for a 10-20 do you?? I have one that i am trying to restore amd cant find any parts for it. any info would be greatly appreciated.

spiffy1 · Oct 16, 2008

(quoted from post at 20:42:34 10/16/08) You would not happen to know where there is a carb and mag for a 10-20 do you?? I have one that i am trying to restore amd cant find any parts for it. any info would be greatly appreciated.

You'll need to post pictures of the manifold to decide which carb. To just run it, leaves things wide open, but if you're doing a restoration and want it to match the day it left the factory you'll need to know the year; I think there would be two, maybe 3 [more??] that could be correct.

spiffy1 · Oct 16, 2008

(quoted from post at 20:33:10 10/16/08) I got a donor tractor for two 10-20s that I am restoring. This donor motor is loose. I rinsed the gas tank out and bled the fuel lines and carb with fresh fuel.

I primed the cylinders with fuel. I have confirmed that there is spark on cylinder #1.

I hooked up the spark plug wires according to the 10-20 owners manual (the wires were attached to the wrong terminals according to the owners manual).

I have not confirmed the correct timing yet. What else should I do to get this old girl firing??? I would love to get it going and then paint the motor and transplant it into my tractor.

Thanks,
Dave

Maybe you already covered everything in another thread and I'm being redundant, but you seldom know why it was last run. Doesn't hurt to pull the valve cover and check for stuck valves, handhole and check the rods, check the butterfly moves in the carb (while it's off, check that it is getting fuel, but not overflowing either) and the linkage up to it responds. It doesn't matter which wire is number 1 as long as the firing pattern is right, so it may have been ok; that's easy to check; then if you have the valve cover off and handhole open anyway: watch intake 1 open - now heading down, close - now heading up: TDC (or just before/after depending upon advance setting) the mag should fire number 1. Make sure it has oil in the troughs and the oil cups when you put the valve cover on (really obvious, but the oil pan has oil up to the petcock too) annnnnddddd:

take of picture of it running!

El Toro · Oct 17, 2008

For the mag have you tried Standard Magneto at
1-800-624-6386? Hal
PS: Try Rice Equipment at 814-226-9200 and the fordsonhouse at 906-786-5120.

James Williams · Oct 17, 2008

MolineBob,There is parts on ebay all the time,mag & carb are the same as the farmall reg.

jimmy

Dave Koenigsfeld · Oct 17, 2008

I have extra mags and carbs but we are sorting through which ones will be used. I sent a mag and a carb to Mainly Magnetos (www.mainelymagnetos.com) for rebuilding. I bought the extras on ebay. Some cheap, some expensive.

Dave Koenigsfeld · Oct 17, 2008

thanks for the info, I'll pull the value cover. The story is that the tractor ran and was put through an amateur restore. The tractor is very complete parts wise except no radiator curtain and no grill. It had a new radiator in it and both fuel tanks were empty and dry. It was full of oil and looked as if they ran it out of fuel where it was parked.

I'll check and oil the value train. I got a great spark out of #1 last night. So loud that I could hear the spark and my buddy jumped when he saw it.

The mainifold is cracked but we will try and find a welder that will tackle it. My other manifold is cracked too. I have two of the other types of manifolds that many people switch too so I can use those if needed but I am tying to save the original equipment.

dave

Dave Koenigsfeld · Oct 17, 2008

crank and rods look great, linkage to carb works good. I blew out the fuel lines and sediment bowl and have fuel flowing good. I did not check the butterfly yet.

I was hoping for the 'miracle' start but didn't get it. When starting, do you only pull on the upstroke like a Model T or do you go to cranking until you get some kind of firing???

molinebob · Oct 17, 2008

Mine is a 1929 model, and it takes the three bolt carb.

spiffy1 · Oct 18, 2008

(quoted from post at 14:43:48 10/17/08) Mine is a 1929 model, and it takes the three bolt carb.

Sounds like the original manifold to me. I was looking for some 22-36 parts and "2horsesandacat" on ebay had quite a few carbs; not sure about the style you need but can't hurt to ask.

I just checked my price list from Rice, I didn't see a full carb listed, but plenty of parts. Wouldn't be surprised either if Alderson can turn up something for you.

spiffy1 · Oct 18, 2008

(quoted from post at 07:43:12 10/17/08) When starting, do you only pull on the upstroke like a Model T or do you go to cranking until you get some kind of firing???

Did it start, did it start???

Dave Koenigsfeld · Oct 21, 2008

no miracle start but I really didn't have much time to devout to it.

spiffy1 · Oct 22, 2008

(quoted from post at 19:52:18 10/21/08) no miracle start but I really didn't have much time to devout to it.

Thanks for the update Dave!

A bit slow on the project here too. I believe my neighbor turned up some spare parts for his 22-36, so until we get through that list, it doesn't make sense to order much yet. Of course, the weather was cooperative until yesterday for other things anyway, so I haven't torn it down any further either.

LenNH · Oct 23, 2008

Whatever you do, DON'T SPIN THE CRANK. Each cylinder of that engine is nearly as big as an ENTIRE VW Beetle engine!! If it kicks backward and you are pushing down, you will break your arm for sure. The impulse coupling is what provides a hot spark, by spinning the magneto just after the piston goes over TDC. AND BE SURE YOU SET that impulse if it is a manual type. If you don't, the engine will fire before TDC and you will get a kickback (if you are pulling up, you probably won't get hurt if you don't have your face down near the crank and if you don't keep your arm in a position so the crank can come around and hit it). Originally, this tractor had a manually-operated impulse, but I think that in the 30s, IHC put on magnetos with automatic impulse couplings. Many of the oldtimers had their mags replaced by either later types (like an F-4, which was an easy adaptation, or something made by another company, like Fairbanks-Morse or Bosch). The later mags might have automatic impulses.
If you can't see the impulse coupling, you can hear it "clink, clink" as the pawl drops into the notch in the drive coupling. If you don't hear the clinking sound as you are beginning the upward pull, stop and find out why there is no sound. The pawl needs a little lubrication to work well. It can also stick if it hasn't been used in a long time.

Dave Koenigsfeld · Oct 23, 2008

I believe that it does have the impulse coupling and should have lubricated it. I push it into the notch to engage and pull up. It pops out but that is the feature correct? I believe it is the F4 type magneto.

spiffy1 · Oct 23, 2008

Sounds like you're on the right feature, but I'm not sure it's working: when engaged [yes, down], as LenNH mentioned, you should hear it click at TDC. Once it starts and has enough RPMs it should stop clicking.

If you have someone there to watch, you can pop the cap off and see it too.

Thanks LenNH for putting safety a bit higher priority than I. I need a tatoo on my forehead and signature line on any forum I post to: "Do as I say, not as I do" or perhaps "Following my example could be hazardous to your health."

edit: I think LenNH was noting: listen for the pawl to drop into the drive, I was noting listen for the mag to snap on release. Same difference, except again, if the mag is turned on [it would be if you're intending to start a tractor] knowing something isn't right before you get to firing position is much smarter!

Dave Koenigsfeld · Oct 27, 2008

I had pulled the plugs and was spinning the crank to see what exactly goes on. The pawl, if I'm guessing right on the part, does not stay engaged more than 1/2 of revolution. I need to have someone help me to watch and and see how the timing is.

I cannot really detect any compression with my finger on #1 either. But then again, I'm trying to turn the motor AND feel for compression at the same time.

My motor guys got my other motor apart and have ordered parts so I haven't spent any time on this tractor yet. It would be worth more if I can get it running when I go to sell it.

spiffy1 · Oct 27, 2008

It should click at the top of each compression, so every half crank is right. I thought from your earlier description that it wasn't re-engaging after the first half crank, but sounds like it's all right.

Unless there is crap under the valves, an entirely shot head gasket or something, I'd think you should get some compression (even if it doesn't hold long) with the deep stroke and big cylinders on these things.

I use a sparkplug hollowed out and adapted to an air line quick coupler. If you put each cylinder between 1/3 and 2/3 up it's compression stroke, and slowly give it air (too fast will drive it right back down if any compression exists), you can often hear, feel or see, whether you have leaky exhaust valves, intakes, head gasket.

Dave Koenigsfeld · Oct 28, 2008

I still learning so bear with me. the little level which I think you are calling the pawl, I have to push it down to engage in the shaft of the mag. when I give the crank the upstroke, it pops back out. I guess I haven't worked on it enough to know if it makes a 'click' or not but in pops back out of the little notch on the upstroke. You make it sound like it should engage itself every revolution. Is this the case? Maybe I need to do a little cleaning on the mechanism. Thanks for your help!!
dave

spiffy1 · Oct 28, 2008

Yep, if the button is down, the pawl [just a little 'finger' that engages a ratchet; not exposed on a F4 mag like an E4] will engage at the beginning of the stroke, and the mag [from the output end that is, the end you turn still does; if on a bench you'll be able to turn it with some leverage and feel the spring resistance building up] won't turn until the top of the stroke [every half crank], when it releases with a [b:59a495c751]very audible click[/b:59a495c751]: giving the mag a quick spin for [now a real mag expert will give better reasoning

] the coil as well a clean break at the points.

The button should not push itself up, and if the tractor doesn't start the pawl should reingage [without pushing the button again].

Of course, if you still have no compression [I never even thought about the obvious here: how does does the crank feel with plugs in vs. plugs out?], even a hot, well timed, spark won't ignite anything [probably not drawing intake either then].

Dave Koenigsfeld · Oct 29, 2008

This was a great description for me. To be honest, I can't feel much difference between how tough the cranking is with plugs in or out. It is tough to crank when in gear though!! yes I tried...... I just do not feel any compression. Maybe the valves are not seating correctly but I did watch all valves go up and down but haven't pulled the head. Hopefully motor guys will have the other motor done soon and the rebuilt mag will be back from Mainly Magneetos so only problem will be USER ERROR. Thanks for the great help!

I hope to enlist a local expert to show me the steps on my tractor to get the old girls going.
Dave

moseed · Nov 4, 2008

(quoted from post at 05:50:35 10/29/08) This was a great description for me. To be honest, I can't feel much difference between how tough the cranking is with plugs in or out. It is tough to crank when in gear though!! yes I tried...... I just do not feel any compression. Maybe the valves are not seating correctly but I did watch all valves go up and down but haven't pulled the head. Hopefully motor guys will have the other motor done soon and the rebuilt mag will be back from Mainly Magneetos so only problem will be USER ERROR. Thanks for the great help!

I hope to enlist a local expert to show me the steps on my tractor to get the old girls going.
Dave

Dave,
If the tratcor has been timed to top dead center and you aren't sure about the impulse working, pull start that little honey if you need to see if and hear it run. You can tweak it for safe crank starting after you hear it run. If she starts and runs it will provide motivation and confidence when your dripping sweat cranking and trying to figure out the little details of getting it going easily by crank. Make no mistake you will want to dial it in for easy crank starting.....it is very rewarding to get the old things going on a couple of pulls. Good luck!

Starting a McCormick-Deering 10-20

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