first oil change

Got an A & I am not sure on the upkeep of the oil changes or frequences from prior owner. Drained the oil tonight & felt inside the pan. There is about 1/8" of sludge in it. Should I drop & clean? Also not sure on what type of oil (non-detergent/detergent) to put back in it. I did some searching & it sounds like most have switched over to a detergent. My searching on YT, I also saw a couple of people said NOT to use Pennzoil, since they have experienced severe breakdown of sludge & it made it even worse, not to mention new oil leaks. Any input?

Well, I can only speak for myself, but one of the first things I do when I get a new "old" tractor is to change the oil and filter. I use 1 quart of rislone with regular HD 30 motor oil. I run it for 20-30 hours, then change both oil and filter. Make sure that you get it up to proper running temp, and keep it there for a bit each time you run it. this can be done as many times as necessary to clean up the engine. I have actually found "smokers" to clean up a bit, and reduce the amount of smoke as the rings free up and clean up. Worn valve guides are a different issue.

sludge, in my opinion is not the way to keep oil leaks down. If there are oil leaks or smoke, etc, correct the issue by replacing parts as necessary.

That 1/8" isn't a lot as sludge goes, especially if you look at the shape of your pan. In the absence of any other reason to open the motor up, I'm with Tom, thinking that regular oil and filter changes will probably clean it up over time.

You'll want to use a good detergent oil. What the detergent means is not that it actively dissolves sludge but that it has additives that suspend the stuff that makes sludge as it forms so that it can be drained with the oil. If you run the tractor as Tom described, letting it warm up and run warm for a while, it will go a long way to cleaning up any soft sludge over time. Hard caked sludge, if there's enough of it to make a problem, would ultimately mean dropping the pan but, as I said, it doesn't sound as if you have all that much.

I've read some of the same threads you found that mention a problem with Pennzoil. I have no experience with it myself. I usually use Valvoline or Havoline and haven't had the problem with either of them that others report with Pennzoil.

I also don't know anything about the rislone additive Tom spoke of. I've used Seafoam as both a fuel and an oil additive to help out with sticky rings and otherwise clean things up a little, with good results. The only caution with any additive is to choose it carefully and use it sparingly. An "overdose" can produce the same problem as Pennzoil supposedly does if you've got a lot of sludge.

Last point, about warming up the motor. Easier said than done unless you have radiator shutters or have some serious work for the tractor to do. Most As and Bs didn't have a temp gauge, but just driving them around with no other load on them, they really don't warm up well. Look around the archives and you'll find all kinds of threads about these little 113s and 123s, even those with temp gauges, not seeming to warm up and the gauges never moving off the bottom peg. That has to do with a) the fact that they don't make as much heat by not being all souped up like modern engines and b) the fan being very efficient, especially on a thermosiphon system which doesn't have a thermostat in it. Sometimes it can't be helped, but as a rule I don't like short cold runs and will try to warm the tractor up any time I run it. My Super C has shutters, so I can use them to help warm things up faster. On the BN (no shutters) I've found that something as simple as letting the draft of the fan hold a kitchen trash bag up against the grill is pretty effective when you need to warm it up. Used that trick to warm the BN up while I raced around adjusting the governor and carb on the first run after a rebuild before I retorqued the head. You wouldn't want to run all day like that unless it were bitterly cold out, but leaving the bag in place until the head is a little too warm to hold your hand to for long and you can feel that the side of the crankcase is good and warm, is one way to warm it up without running it for hours or if you don't have any chores to do that would load the tractor up some.

http://www.barsproducts.com/100QR.htm

Rislone has been around for years, and I have been using it with great results. Many products are out there, and some of them are good, and some are snake oil.

All I can say is that I have had great results using Rislone to clean up engines. Once they are clean, using a good quality HD (high detergent) SAE motor oil keeps it that way.

Seafoam, Marvel Mystery Oil, and the like are also good products. It all depends upon what you are trying to solve.

This one is my preference, and has not failed me yet.

Good warning about the snake oil!

Thanks for the link. Hadn't heard of Rislone (maybe I've been under a rock!), but it reads similar to Seafoam, having lubricity while also having a more effective solvent/suspension effect than just detergent oil.

I also re-read your post below, and it's a good point you make about what these additives do. Great for cleaning up deposits, etc., but they sometimes work well enough to expose other problems, like overworn valve guide-to-stem clearances. That said, I agree wholeheartedly that sludge is not the most desirable sealant.

Drop the pan and buy a new gasket - its not that big of job and it gives you a reason to check out the bottem side of the engine. Refill with a deterginated oil of your choice.


If it were mine I'd pull the valve cover and the side inspection plate too and hose it out with a couple cans of carb cleaner or gas. While you have the valve cover off then you can adjust the valve lash to spec (chances are its well out of adjustment).

As long as an oil is API certified it's not going to be "bad" but there are varying degrees of good. Personally I run Castrol GTX in my vehicles, but even Wal-Mart Super Tech isn't a "bad" oil. The last thing I'd ever put in anything is nondetergent oil - its only good for oiling chains.

Where i'm at, the auto parts stores don't even know what non dtergent is, i just switched, just make sure you clean out the sludge in the pan or detergent oil will break that up and run it throught the engine.

Forgot to mention that this tractor will only be used for light-duty work like mowing in the summertime. Would a detergent 10w-30 motor oil work just fine. I will take the advice to put a plastic trash bag over the grill to "warm" up the engine.

Tom,
Since the tractor sat for about a year, should I also pull the plugs & pour a little oil in the cylinders? Should I do with the valves as well? What else should I do for pre-cautionary services? I am already in the process of changing all fluids. Thanks.

10W30 will be fine. Current oils are designed to withstand temp ranges that were only dreamed of when this thing came out.

Some will say a blended oil will break down in high heat which is true - but you'll never see those kind of temps in your tractor unless you run it without water. Think of it, most modern cars have a 190-210 degree thermostat. Unless you hook it to a plow and pull the **** out of it I doubt you'll ever get close to those temps.

Don't know what your climate is. I'm in mid-coast Maine, so temp is a factor in oil choice.

My SuperC is my working tractor and well-broken-in since I rebuilt the motor. I run 10-30 in it year-round. My BN is a new rebuild and, I'm afraid, a bit of a trailer queen for the time being (family tractor and all . . .). I have her on a diet of straight 30 until I'm satisfied she's broken in and the rings are seated properly. I'll put her on 10-30, as well, when I get to that point.

Your motor is well broken in from the sound of things, and I'd say any good multi-weight, 10-30 (colder climate) or 10-40 (the rest of the world) would be just fine. Though I shy away from it, some folks run 15-40 diesel oils like Rotella with good results. With the extreme cold we can get here, 15 seems as if it could get a little thicker than I would like on those days. On the other extreme, I'd stay away from the 5-xx multiweights.

Mowing may seem like light duty for a tractor like an A, but is just the kind of work that will warm your tractor up. If you figure it to take an hour or so (or more) mowing, skip the bag. But the bag trick is real handy for taking it for a ride in the winter just to keep the juices circulatin' and the battery up.

And to dhermesc's point, there is an argument (and a good one) for dropping the pan and pulling the valve cover and cleaning things out. I'm just not sure of two things -- 1) that your sludge problem is so bad that there's an immediate need to, and 2) whether you're up to it, mechanically speakin'. PLEASE don't take that as a slam. We've got folks on here with the experience of Gene and TV. On the other extreme, there are others who don't own a wrench, and I/we don't know where in that wide range you fall. Dropping the pan for cleaning and looking things over, or lifting the valve cover for cleaning and checking valve clearances -- neither is difficult. They're second nature to those with the experience. For those going into those places for the first time, it can be an adventure, but the good folks here can walk you through it if it's new territory for you. If you decide you want to, or your motor makes problems so that you should need to, let us know. Any number of folks will chime in to help you out and share what tricks they've learned (like I mentioned earlier, having new gaskets at hand!) and what to watch out for that will make the job easier.

Thanks for the reply Scotty. I live in WY, so I will take your advice & run 10-30 in it. I am far from being a mechanic, but I can turn a wrench. I guess I will figure out if I am going to drop the pan or not. Lots of mixed suggestions.

I hear ya'. You'll get advice all over the board here, which is not to say that any of it is bad. We've all had different experiences, some more than others, good and bad, with any job. Some folks are more cautious than others. Some never heard of caution. It can be difficult to sort through it.

From what you've described thus far, dropping the pan or opening up the valve cover is a "can't hurt, might help" at this stage.

If you decide you want to, dropping the pan is not hard. What you'll find is that four of the bolts are of a different length than the others. They're in the middle of the front and rear ends of the pan, between the corners. They're of a different length (longer, like 1-1/2" while the rest are 3/4" or so), but they also won't take as much torque as the others when you go to put them back, as they thread into the aluminum/potmetal (not sure which) retainer blocks surrounding the front and rear felt oil seals on the crank and will strip the female thread if you tighten them down too hard.

It's tips like that that we can help you with. That and (I know you're sick of me sayin' this) havin' a new gasket on hand. It's a simple cork gasket, but they get brittle with age and will break coming off, especially if the last guy used any kind of adhesive in putting it on.

Scotty,
Whene re-installing the pan, I have read where you want to hand screw the bolts back on until you can't go any more (when the bolt head is touching the metal) & then tighten 1/4 turn with a wrench. Run it for a while & observe for leaks & tighten bolts as needed. Is this a good way to go about it since I have no torque wrench?

detergent vs non detergent.
I think many people are of the misconception that detergent means the same as multigrade. So they ask for non detergent for their lawnmower or diesel, when really they are not sure what they are asking for.

karl f

Wow!!! This post took off. Good stuff here.

7Lazy77, to answer your question, yes, I actually go over things like taking the valve cover off, checking the valve lash (clearance), and the like. If you have worn valve guides, you can try the valve stem boots, and they will help, but the down side of them is that they do reduce the oil flowing to the valve stems. Valve stems DO need oil for lube, otherwise they will seize. With that said, when they are worn, too much oil gets into the valve guide/stem clearance, and ends up in the combustion chamber, producing smoke, and carbon deposits on your valves......ultimately resulting in either sticky valves, or valve failure altogether. Once again, IMHO (in my humble opinion). A little oil past slightly worn guides is NOT the end of the world. severely worn guides should be replaced.

As far as the difference between detergent oil, and non-detergent oil, both have uses, and specific applications. Non-detergent oils should be used for things such as hydraulic systems, and non-combustion lubrication. the detergent agents in oil, actually foam a bit, and the oil contains air bubbles. Air bubbles are NOT something you want in a hydraulic system. Micro-bubbles in hydraulic oil compress, and give "spongy" response in key applications. While not the end of the world, certainly not a desirable situation. Air compressors are another application of non-detergent oil. Nuff said here. If it burns gas, diesel, or LPG, etc, you should use SAE HD oil. Brand choice is like debating religion.....don't go there. I would venture to say that if you change your oil regularly, and it is SAE HD certified, there are few bad oils out there. NOT changing oil, and using a high-end brand will damage an engine. regular oil changes are the key, not so much whether or not your brand of oil shows up on the side of a race car at the Daytona 500......

And yes, it certainly can be used for chain saw lube. I prefer oil specifically made for chain saw lubrication, as it has a "sticking" agent in it (usually parrafin) that makes it stick to the chain better. Buy a quart of chain lube oil, and take the lid off. dip you finger in, and pull it away. Even at summer temps, it will string out like "pulled" bubble gum. Sticky stuff that binds to chains better.

Multi-vis is fine. I was raised on HD-10 in the winter, and HD-30 in the summer, and since that usually coincides with the time for oil change for my usage pattern anyway, so I never switched over. However, if the time ever comes that I can only buy multi-vis, I will not be afraid to use it.

A bit long winded, but I think I covered everything. and my standard disclaimer: IMHO

One last note on squirting oil or similar into the cylinders. Unless you have a lot of smoke, OR blowby (which is usually manifested by oil mist constantly coming out of the crankcase breather), no need to do so.

However, if you want to assist sticky rings freeing up, there are a couple of ways. I like to use Marvel Mystery oil for that pupose. If you are using a standard pump oil can, 2-3 squirts in each cylinder. OR if you are pouring in directly 2-3 teaspoons full. with the plugs out, turn the engine over 1-2 revolutions. Then repeat the process and let sit for 2-3 days. This will coat the rings and cylinder walls with the MMO. I have also used bulk Blaster for the same thing with good results.



Before putting the plugs back in, crank the engine over for about 20-30 seconds. This will distribute or expell any excess MMO or Blaster. Put you plugs in, and fire her up. Be sure to run it up to temp, and keep it there a bit. It will smoke and beltch a bit until the MMO or Blaster burns off. What you will have accomplished is getting a solvent based lubricant soaked down into the rings. Bringing it up to temp, with the frsh oil change will do a lot towards loosening stuck or dirty rings. Continued regular oil changes. clean fuel, and occasion good stong "work outs", and you should see you compression improve, and smoke reduce.

However, be aware, this is if the rings are not broken, or completely worn out. This will free sticky rings, and generally improve a tractor that suffers from the "sitting" disease............

http://www.blasterchemical.com/test.html

http://www.marvelmysteryoil.com/index.php/site/products/

I hadn't heard that one. It's a little unreliable as there are 14 other bolts on the pan other than the four long ones I mentioned. Burrs on threads and things like that will make bolts go back into the hole they came out of differently than they came out, and if they go into a different hole then there's all the more variables.

That and I've never seen a torque value for pan bolts, so don't be worrying about a torque wrench for that job.

Here's how I'd go at it. Clean the pan out well. Put solvents (kerosene, diesel . . .) to anything that doesn't come off with a simple pass of a paint scraper. Something like a Scotch-
Brite pad can be used to clean up the gunk that you'll probably find around the lip and edge of the pan that the scraper doesn't get off, and any tough stuff you may find in the bottom. Once everything appears clean, wipe it all down with a rag. Follow that by spraying it down with an aerosol brake cleaner, doing your best to direct everything from the rim either outward or downward toward the oil drain hole at the bottom of the pan. Wipe what you can while it's still wet (the brake cleaner evaporates pretty quickly) and give it a last wipe with a clean rag to get all you can see that might have lingered.

Take that last rag and wipe down the bottom edge of the crankcase, and shoot it with break cleaner and wipe it down dry as well. Goggles and a rag over your mouth will help with this part of the job.

Depending on how it's been handled, the new gasket may or may not line up well with the holes on the top of your pan. Try to get it on dry, but if it takes too much fiddlin', you'll be ahead to hold it in place on top of the pan with a product like Permatex gasket cement on ONE SIDE ONLY, preferably the pan side. That'll allow you to put the pan up in place and wind a few bolts in by hand and keep the holes on the gasket lined up to get the rest of the bolts started.

I wish I knew how to best describe how tight to wind the bolts down (or up, as is actually the case). Finger tight plus a quarter turn like you described is a good rule for a starting point as long as you can get it up snug with your fingers but any warpage on the lip of the pan or burrs on the threads can throw that off. The best I can come up with off the top of my head is to take them to just a hair more than snug with a 3/8" ratchet with a handle in the 8" to 10" range for length. That or finger tight plus 3/8 of a turn. That would be for the 14 bolts. For the four long bolts, I'd go easier.

It's a cork gasket and will swell up some to fit and seal up when the oil gets to it. The key is to have the pressure on the gasket even all the way around it, whether that means a quarter turn, 3/8 or a half.