Stuck 22-36

Hello All,

Found my way here during websearches quite a few times, but never posted before. Mostly Farmall & McCormick, but plenty color blind too.

Onto the tractor question from the title: a neighbor asked me to help him fix up his dad's 22-36: last ran about 30 years ago when it was parked due to the governor going nuts. Looks like the water was drained when it was parked. Oil looks good. Original style manifold (so condensation would have been the only enemy I can think of), the throttle was updated to the governor side instead of the carb side.

I have a nearly identical 22-36, and have unstuck a few tractors, but not that one, so before I get ahead of myself: is there anything I need to tend to before breaking it loose - like valves, waterpump, etc. so as to not inadvertantly destroy them? It's been soaking [diesel/brake fluid] a couple months, about 1/3 up/down; if sitting on the crank every few days doesn't move it after a while, I'll probably pull the rockers so all the valves are up and give like pairs air in alternating directions.

He want's to keep it as he remembers rather than a full restoration, so I'm hoping not to pull the head or anything major

Clutch is stuck too; I recall that being a bugger on mine; any advice there?

How about that governor? Any advice.

Is the shop manual on this worth buying; I've had mixed results there.

Aything else I should be thinking about?

Thanks Everyone!

Have used product called "LOOSEY GOOSEY" on a few stuck motors works batter than deisel,but it eats away all rust on whatever it touches so may cause some pits.

(quoted from post at 08:57:22 09/22/08) Have used product called "LOOSEY GOOSEY" on a few stuck motors works batter than deisel,but it eats away all rust on whatever it touches so may cause some pits.

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Loosey Goosey? Hadn't heard of it before 8) Thanks!

I wonder if that's about like Exrust by Kano. Of course, for the same reason [I suspect it'd leave pits] I'm not using that.

I've never had any luck using diesel and or brake fluid but have had very good luck using tranny fluid and if that does not work adding turpentine to the ATF.
Hobby farm

I think old uses "tranny fluid" for everything rom constipation to arthritis.

Might even cure clap with it.


Gene

Use the ATF and let it soak. You may need to pull the head and pan and pour some diesel or kerosene in one cylinder at a time and set it on fire then see if you can drive out the piston and rod. Hal

An Idea I heard just this weekend is to pull the head and lay a rag soaked with ATF on the piston, then light the rag on fire. The person I talked to claimed the ATF is a very high detergent oil and as the rag burns and heats the cylinder, hot oil will creep down the sides of the piston. Anyone else heard of this idea? Jim

(quoted from post at 20:35:06 09/22/08) An Idea I heard just this weekend is to pull the head and lay a rag soaked with ATF on the piston, then light the rag on fire. The person I talked to claimed the ATF is a very high detergent oil and as the rag burns and heats the cylinder, hot oil will creep down the sides of the piston. Anyone else heard of this idea? Jim

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Heard of that but never tried it; also a variaiton without pulling the head by putting a wick down the spark plug hole. In this case, I think head gaskets are pretty available, but I'm trying to go with the simplest techniques first.

I've also read about using a "portapower" instead of compressed air, but unless the pistons can be clear of the crank, I just imagine nasty projectile motion. Also, I have no idea of the pressure those heads can take [I'm pretty sure 1Ksi would be OK, but have my doubts about 2 or 3], a bit hesitant there.

As El Toro noted, I've found soaking time [counted in months] usually helped enough, but I doubt it's the best or quickest.

What about that clutch? Somehow I can see it coming to digging it out and pulling it all apart, but with mine I was able to get enough penetrating oil into it without pulling it out that it went from stuck to sticky [probably not even the latter if I ran it more].

If it is like a 10-20 and you can remove the flywheel cover to gently get a pry-bar on the flywheel teeth it will give you more leverage than the hand crank. Gently is the key word as you can break off flywheel teeth if you are too rough

(quoted from post at 21:10:52 09/22/08) If it is like a 10-20 and you can remove the flywheel cover to gently get a pry-bar on the flywheel teeth it will give you more leverage than the hand crank. Gently is the key word as you can break off flywheel teeth if you are too rough

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I think that is possible, but afraid gentle isn't often my strong suit with a prybar in hand!


Haven't worked with it much more, but did check the pan plug - a pint of water! So maybe the governor housing was tore apart before it was shedded, condensation was nastier than I suspected, or mouse urine - not sure if the latter is probable, but there was a nest in the manifold. Also noticed the upper exhaust divertor wasn't seated on one side - maybe 3/8" !

I'm afraid this thing may be planning to put a up a bit of a fight. Next step probably pull the valve cover, and see if I can bring up the open valves. Then at least I can put some air pressure to those two also.

A new record for anything I've seen on a stuck engine: 7stuck valves, 6 open!

I can only guess someone must have cranked it a couple times before the pistons siezed and with durations long enough to stick the pair of opens. One set fully open, I'd guess was the first set; one partially open, I'd guess as the second, and current fully open.

A little penetrating oil, and tapping a 2X4 placed on the rocker, I have all the intake cooperating [#1 a bit slowly]. I got a little motion out of the exhaust on 2&3, maybe 4, but #1 is stuck closed and stuborn at that. Yep, I'm thinking it was getting water in the manifold.

3 open exhaust valves, wow....somehow I'm thinking I was being an optimist when I noted it may put up "a bit of a fight" getting it loose!

No updates yet (on the freeing the pistons), but I was going to post some pictures and had a couple ettiquet questions. I asked this as a tangent in another thread, so if someone replied and I missed it, my appologies.

1. Should I keep adding to the same thread as this progresses or start a new one each time. I'm more used to the former, but notice the latter quite a bit here.

2. Should pictures of components, etc, be added to the YT gallery for posting in threads, is there a way I'm not seeing to post directly in a thread, or go with Photobucket or the like. Again, I'm a bit more used to uploading the picture "directly" to the post, but think I've seen quite a few here linked in from an external source.

Thanks Guys!

It's a bit cold outside, so I hope to have the head off today!

BTW: I happened to see ATF on sale when I was in town, so thinking of Old I bought an extra gallon; pretty sure I'll be sucking the cylinders dry and adding a new solution after seeing all the open valves and some corrosion under #1 and #3 piston :insert 'yuck' smiley here: also realizing that it was closer to 50-50 than 1/3 -2/3 stroke, so either had varying amounts of diesel before I added, or there was water sitting in #2 and #3 :double 'yuck': .

OK, dumb question I should know the answer to but don't. It looks like there's a date code behind the manifold on the block. I didn't realize these had a date code, but XX-XX-29 (the X's being numbers I don't recall but something like 06-20) seems too ideal 29 being the first year of the 22-36.

Another dumb question, if this is a '29, then the bathtub casting and tranny guts are identical to a 15-30? I think they added some bearings a couple years after the engine updates, but may be imagining things there too.

Finally, an update: the mag [E4] needed the impulse lubed up and gently worked loose....nothing.......a little touch up on the points..... then SNAP! Pretty nice looking spark! Even fires [not quite as hot, but jumps across a plug] turning it by hand.... not too bad for not moving in 20 some years!

On the down side, that manifold is rather nasty! Hope things underneath the head look better.......

Pictures! Didn't want to cooperate using a URL from a different forum and I'm still not sure if ongoing projects belong in TractorShed, so photobucket it is.... I checked HTML on my profile, but it still says OFF, so I tried just using alone, and I'm seeing the preview fine. Just a couple for now; that head fought me for three hours and I got to bed too late, but if it's good it was worth going slow.


[img]https://i360.photobucket.com/albums/oo46/spiffy1_photos/22-36.jpg

Didn't even need to get the other nut (one was gone and it wasn't sealed) off the heat selector to know what I was going to find! It was packed full but I fired up the shopvac and almost forgot to get a picture. The head is now off and the valves look as bad or worse than I thougt while the head may have survived! Now that I noted that and have agrevated Murphy's Law watch magnaflux prove me wrong.... Of course, the manifold is nasty (look at it crumbling just left of the lower selector] from water or mouse urine, so perhaps Murphy is happy for a while.

Almost forgot to post this one! Is this a date code (engine block behind manifold exhuast loop) ?

Here's a couple before I sucked out the diesel mix; surface rust but little, maybe no, pitting.



Front view, #4 is carbonned pretty good: I'm guessing rings rather than guides, but the guides got enough weathering and the pistons are stuck hard enough....don't think there's much autopsy regarding that.

Head could be worse, but I'm not taking any optimism until I hear the magnaflux results. The valves however, look pretty ugly to me. I noticed when taking it apart, at least the manifold had been off before; looks like seat inserts, so I suspect a head job. If it isn't cracked the machine shop confirmed it will be needing some milling (they didn't think it had been previously) - it looks like some "cross-talk" between pairs.

(re:22-36)

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After posting a question about this breaking into two threads I think I better undertand better the ideosyncracies of the Classic and Modern View running concurently. I'm going to try copying info/disussion back here and then make a new thread occasionally pinging this one, as I understand the those using the Classic view won't see it bump.

(re:22-36)

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You can post two or more pics just below your message you're posting. Here's Jon's web site for posting pics, line 6 covers 2 or more pics be sure to leave a space between pics or write some text. Hal
PS: Note the symbols & punctuation used when posting 2 or more pics.


http://my.voyager.net/~ancestorfarms/ytmag/


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(re:22-36)

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Thanks for the link El Toro! That one looks like it's storing them in YT's TractorShed. No problem doing that; I just didn't see too many other 'parts' photos there - maybe not really looking either.

I might sign up a Photobucket, or perhaps see how they come out if I upload them directly in a thread of another forum where I think they might like to see what project I got myself into. Head is now off and I certainly have some pictures!

Thanks again!

[b:610d1c8ab8]Update[/b:610d1c8ab8]: Using Modern View, Img works fine for me with multiple pictures, but I am writting in between partially to keep the information organized and partially 'just to be safe'


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(re:22-36)

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engine built july 24,1929


now that you got the bull by the horns tell us if that ATF would have loosend it up with out dissasembly.how much rust is on them sleeves?

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(re:22-36)

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...1929
Thanks rustred!
...ATF...
I have photos to go with that too!

I'll add the photos in the original thread. This is technically El Toro's thread so I can't speak for him, but from my side: Mods if you'd like to cut and paste this one into the original that'd be fine with me.

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(re:22-36)

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now you can see what i am talking about. i cant see 2 gal. or 45 gal.of ATF ever making this engine run. when its stuck its stuck. just take it apart and do it properly.




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(re:22-36)

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Spiffy,I wish i was there helping you.This is my favorite part of restoring,just breaking that motor loose is most of my satisfaction.That motor is no worse then any other motor.Heat is your best help,fill each one of the pistons with deisel fuel and let burn,one piston at a time,jaring on the top of the piston with a peice of flat steel and a 12 plus pound hammer,protect your cylinder walls and the top of your pistons.

jimmy

Well rustred: I hate to admit it on something with that manifold style, and I hate to deny giving time its due for a penetrant to work, but between the selector leaving a gap and that mouse thinking the exhaust valves were it's outhouse.....I'm afraid you're right. :lol:

Actually, I'm not sure that some time and maybe 1000psi wouldn't have go it there, but there was no way those valves or the head gasket would have kept any pressure anyway - also, I'd fear cracking the head or the crank with too much pressure.

With the condition of the valves, [I suspect] guides, and crosstalk [nasty head gasket or warped head perhaps], the head needed to come anyway though. So, like you noted 8) "do it properly."

Howdy Jimmy! Thanks! You'd be welcome to stop by if you're in SouthEast SD.

I do like the rush of breaking one loose, I'd say that is my favorite, but only if I don't have to take the head.... in that case, I like the head itself 1) for mystiec of peering into something no one has touched in years 2) a bit like a buried treasure in reverse: you open it up and really know what you're getting into 3) Somehow loosening an engine seems a bit more "mechanics" than "craft" when you can see everything [but how rusted the rings are....pretty hard in this case I'm beginning to think!]

Haven't tried the sledge hammer yet [only a 3lb over a 4X4] as I haven't dropped the rodcaps. These have ballbearing mains pressed on the crank rather than split mains - so you need to have the pistons loose to clear the main. Worst case, I can likely drive 'em up and if the sleeve comes to, take care of it out of the block (harder to handle; easy to heat).

Cleaned one up a little just to see what it'll take to get it reasonablly "tight" again.

The sleeve [about 1" down, the top of course is right at 4.75]

About .015-.20 over in the perpendicular, perhaps .012 to .015 over parallel to the engine. Probably figure another 5 after honing (going on the assuption there will be a little pitting at the rings) ?

I'm thinking even for it's intended purpose, a bit loose to just throw in rings. I did do it on a Regular [again not intended for field work] once though as bad or worse however, it was running so no rust to hone, just needed to break the polish and the "ring lip": the only time I worked it hard was some heavy disking to seat the rings, and it held up fine.... but somehow in retrospect that seems like a iffy solution.

Getting under the pan, I noticed all but #2 having more rust than I thought. Should be interesting!

#3&#2
Sump
#1
#2@#1


The shot of #4 didn't come out, maybe I'll take another, but the one of the sump with some taste tantalizing slime came out nice enough.

Good luck on your adventure. This one seems stubborn.

Charles

(quoted from post at 21:51:37 10/13/08) Good luck on your adventure. This one seems stubborn.

Charles

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Thanks Charles!

I got #2 loose and out of the way; haven't taken it out. But unless #3 want's to behave so I can clear the crank for 1&4, stubborn is a pretty good choice of words!

Also found out, judging from the rod bearings [which at least the upper halves, and really both should be replaced]: another two minutes of running with that governor gone and I think it would have been beating the crankshaft or throwing rods out the block.

#2 & #3 are out the way!! Two wasn't too bad, but three - STUBBORN! With a jack under the rod, I took the front end off the ground an inch, then still had to crawl on top of the front end (rad is off) put a 2X4 over the sleeve and whack it good with a hammer. After that, drove it back down to the crank, and brought up again, about 1/4" at a time - the first 3 or 4 still took persuasion on top!

Now I can clear the crank, so #1 and #4 can meet a nice big hammer!

It looks pretty good inside that engine after sitting all those years. I never saw a 22-36 in this area, but there were plenty of 10-20's and 15-30's. Hal
PS: Here's a pic of one that was restored and painted with Vansickle paint. I was looking at their paint colors when I saw this picture.

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Thanks Hal! The light is playing a few tricks, but not too bad; some rust dripped down the rods, and a little surface rust on the main ball bearings and here and there, but I did suspect worse.

If you had 15-30s, likely some were 22-36's; same tractor, but with larger bore and RPMs in 1929 through 1934, not sure if IH ever did label them 22-36 (except the HP numbers), though they may have after a couple years. Still haven't even seen a what the stencil set looks like; unless the only difference is waterpump stickers, I think this being a '29 will need 15-30 stickers.

Just wanted to share I really enjoy your continued posts on this tractor.

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Harsh reality, but rewarding. JimN

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Thanks SproutW! Glad you're enjoying them.

Thanks Jim! Before it wound up in my machine shed, I thought it was going to be any easy one; however, no doubt, it is the challanges that make the rewards greater!

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Hi all,

Just to make sure my memory isn't decieving me, I better see what everyone else thinks:

1. This has the "aftermarket" throttle linkage (though oringinal "universal" manifold; if someone has one for sale, rain or mouse moisture did it in pretty good; he doesn't have the water injector carb or tubes either, so if someone has it all together all the better!) and he's thinking he'll to keep that style. Not sure if it is from an IH power unit or Heisler though. Regardless, I think the fork and follower are the same? So after-market or NOS for orginal should work for these?

2. The eninge casting is July 1929. I presume that means that the clutch and all the way back is identical to the late 15-30 [my books don't cover the 22-36 version], or did they add more bearings in '29. On the same note, but getting way ahead, are the stencils identical? Who's stencils look the best [if not all the same] on grey? Anyone try the fenders from The Fordson House? Getting that far ahead, how about paint; I just noticed El Toro posted VanSickle's version, a bit darker than Fordson House or McCormickDeering.com.

3. I'll try Alderson, Fordson, and Rice, but anyone have an overhaul kit, how about S&P, or just sleeves? I'm thinking it would be at least .020 over after honing, and that seems like quite a bit.

4. Question 2 just got me thinking it would be nice to prime everything as I'm putting it together. What holds up well, is available in spraybomb [I hate to clean a gun that many times], and would get along with whatever is put on top (a rather variable question I know)? Even better if a close, but not perfect match to the top coat.

I'll probably cut and paste this back to my original thread [which I'm pasting all my pictures to for continuity], after a week or two, so it probably doesn't matter which is replied to right now.

Thanks everyone!

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You can have fenders made by Bob Lefever in Peach Bottom PA his number is 717-548-4131 he makes them for 10-20's and he may be able to make yours. Howard at Tired Iron Farm in IN makes them for 10-20's too. Give him a call at 574-848-4628. Hal

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as for the paint i would go with the mccormick deering grey . that gray is an exact match to the original gray . everyone else is a supposed to be a close match.may as well make it original. some of them grays look like hell. as far as sleeves and pistons that will be tough. on these old 1000 RPM engines it dont have to be new. give it a good hone job and check sleeves for pits. a few small pits dont hurt anything either. you will never hone .020 with a hone . thats boreing bar work. check pistons, if ring grooves are not worn too much all you need is a set of rings.that engine will still out last you. i am sure you wont be in the field every day pulling a breaking plow with it. back to honeing i think it would clean up with only a couple thou. removed. sure you may have staining and slight pits but that will be fine. every body talks about soaking them and getting them started and i will tell you those sleeves are in a lot worst shape than yours will be. good luck.

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They went to different bearings on the transmisison on a 22-36 when the horsepower upgrade was done. Not a good change, either.

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Thanks El Toro! I put them on the list; if The Fordson House comes up with sleeves, I'll gladly take their fenders, but I love having options....


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rustred,

Do you mean the stuff from The Fordson House, or McCormick Deering.com (both I believe made their match from painting a sample from a NOS can)? No doubt, some grays just don't look right (done a Regular too light myself quite a few years ago).

Soaking and starting.... yep, I can't deny that myself, and I've found that even if I can get smooth running, power loss can get apparent real quick. The sleeves are .015+ in wear about 1" down, so that's why I figured .020 after cleaning them up and honing. That Regular I just noted with an ugly color, I left about like that with just new rings (though it hadn't been stuck, just very wore out) and actually doesn't seem too bad. I just hate to do something that may 'backfire' when it's not mine.

Thanks!

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Thanks Guy Fay! Hopefully, it's not too bad, but this one has seen more than plenty of use.

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Free at last, Free at last!!!

Had the neighbor (tractor's owner) bring over a good solid 4X4 [I trimmed the edges to fit 4.75] and his favorite sledge hammer. Number 1 shown here was tight, tight, tight, yet despite plenty of rust, little pitting.

Had a ATF and diesel mixture about 1/2" in #1&4, lit #1 aflame while pulling the rod cap from #4 [a bit tedius with the pins right next to the block]. Put out the flame, and inserted the 4X4......and let him do the swinging while I watched the rods [didn't want to scratch the crank] I don't think I saw it move the first few hits, then.... maybe a 16th inch at at time. Finally got it about 1" from the bottom of stroke.

Fired up #4 while pulling #1s cap which would have been very tedius, but by driving it down until the cap was positioned right; much better.

I expected 4 to be the worst, but I think it moved on the first whack! And moved pretty easy after that.

Cleaned up the bores with a brass pad and diesel, vacuumed it out, then drove #1 up with the jack, and #4 with a 2X4 and a small ballpeen. Still took some hammer work from the top but they all drove out half decent after that.

#3 had some pitting by the wrist pin, looked like may have been scored first; yet this had the tightest bore; I'd say over .010, but not .015 [my "ID Mic" is a bit hokey, but I can get repeatable results] without cleaning it up better. I'll have to measure again and see after some cleaning, but don't know all the options available for parts yet either. #2, the cleanest, was .015+, while #1 and #4 I'd call just under .015.

Rod bearings on 2&3 lost some material on the rod side, and light scoring on the cap side; 1&4 got away with light scoring if anything. Forgot to get pictures of that!

Forgot to note the carbon shown in the second picture is from burning the diesel ATF mix, the original Carbon in #4 is gone but for the pictures I took earlier.

Also, forgot to post this one earlier: I really don't know whether this will ever see Distillate or Kerosene, but still don't like it, or the implications of the condition behind the intake preheat area. So a manifold will be the ideal scenario, else a very talented welder will be needed to fix this.