H charging prob;lem

Maybe someone has had this happen. Battery finally failed on the 48H. 7yrs old. Replaced with an 8v battery instead of 6. Generator not charging. Energize the Regulator- still not charging. Replace regulator with new from local Case IH dealer. Hook up as per instructions. Hook up battery and BIG spark. Ammeter shows full discharge. It will start, run and charge @10amps at idle-more at WOT. If you leave the battery hooked up it will drain the battery in less than 1 hour. Seem to have continuity everywhere in the system when batt is connected. Replaced the starter switch and kill switch with no change in draw. Do I have a bad regulator or is it the gen? It is a Delco 6v generator. Any help is appreciated
Thanks Pete

Though workable, 8 volt batteries are not a very good solution to starting/operating. The regulator usually needs to be adjusted to substantially higher than normal to make it work. Like 9.1 volts or more. THe issue with yours is that the contacts in the regulator that are a cutout relay, have welded together. Probably, but not an acusation, that the battery was connected negative ground for an instant. This welding has allowed the generator to be permanrntly (with that regulator) connected to the battery. This will heat components and damage wiring and drain the battery.
Put a 6v battery back in it . Put on heavy 00gauge cables to both ground, and supply.
Get a new regulator, and polarize the generator by touch ing a wire from the Bat term on the reg to the Arm/Gen terminal on the reg. (it does not polarize the reg, it polarizes the gen field poles. Good luck, keep us informed. JimN

Thanks for the input. The neg. cable never got grounded out. The Gen is charging at about 9.6v right now. Guess I'll try another battery and regulator.
Thanks Pete

If the regulator you purchased was a polarity sensitive type (newer style) it could have a high capacity diode in it instead of a Cutout relay. If so it will dead short the battery to ground as described if it is for a negative groung system and is used on a positive ground unit. Best of luck, JimN

Like Jim, Im NO FAN of the 8 volt system as a band aid approach to fix a problem which a good heavy duty battery and 00 Gauge cables might cure, especially on an lil H although Id cut a guy a lil more slack if it were an M lol

As far as charging an 8 volt battery with a 6 volt genny, heres my thinkin and I hope Bob M n Jim will confirm or shoot this down......

A genny dont necessarily know its voltage, thats a function (in great part within limits) of how fast it turns plus how much current is pumped through the field windings. So....

1) If its a cutout relay I think it will still charge an 8 volt battery NO MODS NECESSARY (notwithstanding cut in/out voltage adjustment) although maybe not at any super high charge rate.

2) If it has a VR that has 2 coils and one (not the cutout relay) is a current controller ONLY, I think it will still charge with no mods (other them perhaps cut in/out voltage) cuz the current control relay can still do its job.

3) HOWEVER if its a 3 coil or 2 coil relay and the one relay is a VOLTAGE CONTROL RELAY (or a combination current n voltage relay on that second coil) I think it needs some significant adjustments (air gaps or spring tensions) to charge an 8 volt battery.

PS follow Jims advice about Polarity and be sure n polarize the genny and have a VR thats compatible with your ground polarity

John T

I agree with Jim. Either the new regulator was bad out of the box (unlikely) or the battery got momentarily connected with the polarity backward after the you wired up the new regulator. The reverse current then either welded the cutout contact points shut (mechanical cutout relay) or fried/shorted the solid state cutout diode.

Like Jim, Im NO FAN of the 8 volt system as a band aid approach to fix a problem which a good heavy duty battery and 00 Gauge cables might cure, especially on an lil H although Id cut a guy a lil more slack if it were an M lol

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I agree 100% John T(!)

A genny dont necessarily know its voltage, thats a function (in great part within limits) of how fast it turns plus how much current is pumped through the field windings. So....

1) If its a cutout relay I think it will still charge an 8 volt battery NO MODS NECESSARY (notwithstanding cut in/out voltage adjustment) although maybe not at any super high charge rate.

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Yup. A cutout system is not much insensitive to system voltage. A "6 volt " genny and cutout will charge an 8 volt (or even a 12 volt...) battery - though at a lower rate and a higher cut-in RPM.

(2) If it has a VR that has 2 coils and one (not the cutout relay) is a current controller ONLY, I think it will still charge with no mods (other them perhaps cut in/out voltage) cuz the current control relay can still do its job.

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The 2 relay VR's I'm familiar with (Delcos on IHC and MinneMo stuff) combine both the current and voltage regulating funtions into a single relay. They're extremely difficult to field adjust correctly to work on 6 volts - for 8 volts they're virtually impossible to get right.

(3) HOWEVER if its a 3 coil or 2 coil relay and the one relay is a VOLTAGE CONTROL RELAY (or a combination current n voltage relay on that second coil) I think it needs some significant adjustments (air gaps or spring tensions) to charge an 8 volt battery.

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Yes again. Need to increase the spring tension on the VR relay to "bump" the regulating set point from around 7 volts to a tad over 9 volts. (My experience is this is easier said than done however....)

PS follow Jims advice about Polarity and be sure n polarize the genny and have a VR thats compatible with your ground polarity.

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Amen!

Yo Bob, thanks for the feedback, MOST Mother Deere 2 coil VR's are the same as you mention, the one relay is a COMBINATION Voltage and Current sensitive controller BUT they made one 2 coil VR (Im fairly sure no warranty) where that second coil is a CURRENT CONTROLLER ONLY which would work easy to make a 6 volt system charge 8 volts same as the cutout relay only systems.

Since we both agree n the Jimster hasnt shot us down WE MUST BE RIGHT HUH

John T

Right indeed John!

In fact the 2 element VR in a buddy's '52 JD A has the same Delco part number as the regulator in my '53 Super H.

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Incidentally I submit 2 element VR's are more of an oddity than are 3 element (separate voltage and current relays) VR's. When I was growing up all our cars 'n trucks (Ford, Chevy, IHC) and Oliver tractors employed 3 element VR's. Only our early '50's Farmalls had the 2 element units.

Bob M

Yeppers, most of the older auto VR's were 3 element which I as an engineer think is best anyway, I dont like trying to let voltage and/or current BOTH control just that one relay, so straightforward to let one element regulate due to voltage and a seperate one from current buttttttttt look at the money they saved I reckon was the driver???????

When I was much younger n dumber then I am now I didnt realize the old Ford VR's were Class B systems while most other were Class A and there was silly me trying to use a Ford Class B VR on an A system (never could get that rascal to work lol)

As the old saying goes, "Of all the things Ive lost, its my mind I miss the most"

John T

Ah yes John T - the Class A vs B generators! I still recall the frustration as a teenager trying to get a VR "borrowed" from a Chrysler irrigation pump (class A genny) to work on a Ford dump truck (class B) during the bean harvest on a dark, cold night.

Bob

Just FYI the VR is a 2 coil design. Would really like to keep the 8v if possible as the starter cranks over faster and the lights are brighter, Not really important but the old girl does start easier on 8v. I have a new regulator coming and have anther 6v battery to try. I'll let you guys know how I make out. We really need this thing to run right as it is how I saw all of my firewood to stove length and I still have fence lines and walls to mow.
Thanks for all of your help Pete

Thanks for all the advice. Last night after trying 2 different regulators with no success- both had external ballast resistors which my unit does not use- I put the "failed" voltage regulator back on and adjusted the spring tension on the Field side of the genny. It went from 10a discharge to 15a charge reat. After a few more adjustments on spring tension the charge rate is at 4a at idle and approx 8a at WOT with the 8V battery. I'm going to run it for now and see what happens.
Thanks again Pete