Still losing hair! In clumps now!!

OK! I have checked over all my wiring and continuity, grounds and tried every test that I can think off..... Just got done taking the genny apart just "cause" and all looks and tests out good. The genny will motor w/power to ARM and the Field grounded, when F ground is removed it speeds up. I've grounded the field post while running... no change. I've even done this while lifting the adjustable coil in the reg that is causing it to go to full discharge, no change. When the engine starts it immediately goes to full discharge while slightly loading the engine. I am running the system positive ground and have tried polarizing several times.... Question: would there be any reason the genny would not polarize? I'm half thinking of switching to negative ground but the batt box is all painted up and covered, PAIN! The reg and genny are both off of a newer baler engine (along with all the engine internals) and all looked brand new when I opened it all up. My wiring harness is a brand new, period correct, reproduction. I think I may be going crazy!! It's a 1945 IA for gawds sake! It can't be this difficult!

Just shootin' in the dark here, but where your motor came off a baler, is the pulley on your generator the right size? Should be a shade under 3-1/4" across on the face of it.

yep! 3-1/4" across...

This ain't brain surgery!

Get an ANALOG voltmeter between the "ARM" terminal and chassis ground and see what's going on... is it charging (-) or (+), and at what voltage?

Then report back with the findings.

(MANY digital meters are hopelessly confused by the electrical noise from the ignition and charging systems on these old beasts.)

If you have a spare amp meter, or your Multi meter reads to 30 amps (probably not) do this.
Disconnect the F terminal from Regulator and ground it so that the field on gen is grounded.
Take off wire from the arm terminal on gen.
Put a #10 wire on the Arm terminal of the gen and run it to the Different not installed amp meter (be sure to hook it so the needle moves to discharge when one end is connected to the neg bat post and a load is connected (light bulb) to the other end). from there run a #10 wire over by the battery and keep the wire disconnected. (be careful with it it will have volts)
Start the tractor and run 1/2 throttle
Touch the wire to the Negative terminal of the battery (on the battery, not the starter connection) It should now charge on the meter.
What you have is only the good generator in the circuit, if it does not charge, it will be a miricle. JimN

Thanks for clarifying the brain surgery thing!

Here's what I got;
With ARM wire attached I get neg 3 to 4 volts
With ARM wire removed I get pos 10 to 11 volts

This is with a digital meter, don't have an analog one handy.
The thing that's been getting me is the "new" amp meter pegging on discharge... and loading the engine.

I think this may be tractor/rocket science! How cool is that??

This is just a simple question for a simple mind, did you put a volt meter on the bat when running to see if it is indeed charging.
Is the amp meter wired backwards.

Simple test grounding the field and it charges the reg is bad. Grounding the field and it doesent charge the gen is bad. Do you have the correct regulator for the gen as they do list two of them.

Dan,
My take is - your generator is working but is not properly polarized to put out a negative voltage (you say it measured positive 10V at Arm terminal with its wire removed - engine running?). I believe what your meter says, that the gen is putting out positive, but your battery is negative with respect to ground - result, lots of Amps through that Ammeter!

First, Make absolutely sure that the cover/base of the VR is grounded to the tractor frame. Some VR units are rubber-mounted with a separate small braided wire to the tractor VR mounting bolts (VR cover/base should measure about zero Ohms (lowest Ohmmeter range) to tractor frame ground).

Then, try repolarizing one more time, but first put a direct grounding wire to the Field terminal of the generator. Then, engine off, touch a wire momentarily from the battery (-) to the Gen Arm terminal (should spark). Remove grounding wire. If it doesn't charge normally, then ground the Field terminal - it should start. If it does start charging with ground applied, then the field relay in the VR is likely not grounding the Field terminal as it should (until the battery is up to near a full charge), or the wire from the VR 'F' to the Gen Field is open.

just a thought, you said a later model baler engine? new enough that it has 12 volt generator feeding a 6 volt system? i'm probably all wet with this but you may want to check it out. good luck leroy

Gene,
I agree! I do not think the genny is polarizing to a pos ground, I've kinda been suspecting this. I went out and tried polarizing again, exactly as you wrote it, and now it will stay at about a 3amp draw, coil draw, for several more seconds than before but it goes right back to pegging at discharge. I tried it several times and even held the batt neg on the ARM for a bit more than momentarily. after several attempts I'd even have to remove one of the amp meter wires to get it to stop discharging when it was shut down, it would go right back to normal after disconnecting and reconnecting. I think I'm gonna just turn this little bugger into a neg ground and try that. I was just putting it to pos ground cause that's the way it was born, no other reason.
Thanks everyone for all the responses and add more if ya have um! I'm gonna take a break for a few days and go to work, I'll give it a whirl next week...

Daniel
p.s. I did try grounding the field as well, it is showing a zero ohm ground through the reg but I ran a wire to be sure.

From your last reply below, I see the following possible reality.
The cutout relay is not doing its job in the VR.
If it is not, the generator will discharge radically through the amp gauge to the gen.
The generator and Battery are always fighting each other for voltage supremacy. If the Cutout relay is letting the generator stay connected, even when it is turning slowly enough not to charge the battery, it will do as you indicate is happening.
Another factor is that the generator from a baler
may be limited to only a few amps charge rate because it has no lights and runs long spells between start cycles.
My suggestion might sound wierd, but try it if you can!
Find a junk alternator and take the main diode bridge out of it (the big diodes) they will come in two sets of three. One will pass current lead to base, the other base to lead.
Use one of these diodes (in the set or seperated)
to replace the cutout relay. Disconnect the VR from the Bat terminal, and Gen terminal (leave the field connected. Connect the battery lead wire to one diode lead, and the Arm lead from the Gen to the other.

This prevents discharge into the generator (if it sparked, it is the wrong set of diodes, use the other one)
No way can it now discharge. Now run the engine at high speed and see what happens. It may just work!

If your generator and regulator is really a three brush unit, the thing you call a regulator might be a cutout and field resistance unit only. Not a true regulator.
If it has only one coil and contact set in it, it is not a regulator, and it is not doing its job.
New fangled really good cutout relays have a diode inside instead of the coil and contacts, so my method is not out of line.
If it will not charge now, ground that field terminal and try it at high speed.
If it just charges a little, you have a low output generator, not a good choice for a tractor.
If it is a three brush, adjust the movable brush close to the stationary brush and see if it charges more.
I would replace them both if it will not charge much, and only then put a real regulator on it if it does. Not a cutout relay) Let us know what you find.
Remember good looks often can get a person in trouble. Function is a premium.
JimN

Jim,
Boy you hit it on the head! "Looks will get you in trouble and function is premium" That was a great comment! I wonder if that's why I never get in trouble? Suppose that's a subject for a different time (and probably forum)
The genny is a three brush and the VR has two coils and four poles... Won't be getting to it till next week, but I will post any results that I do discover.
Thanks so much!
Daniel

Dan,
I've based everything I've written on your report of positive +10V at the Arm terminal with Arm wire disconnected and engine running.

If the voltage output from that Gen Arm is truly positive (with Arm wire disconnected) despite your re-polarization efforts, then there's something about that generator/VR that's different from what is expected or something has been missed.
Permanent magnetism in the Gen field poles could prevent a polarization reversal, but I don't know if that happens.
JimN is correct in saying that the cutout relay is probably not opening its contacts. What else but the Gen Arm would draw so much current, but stop after a batt disconnect and then re-connect?

JimN's suggestion to use a diode will work IF the Gen output is negative and Batt is also negative (diode cathode side connected to Gen Arm). But if the gen output IS positive and the Batt negative, the diode will never turn on to connect Gen to Batt as the coutout relay evidently does.

I'd bite that battery box 'bullet' and swap the battery to negative ground (temporarily?). At least, you'd know if you have a charging system that works (Ammeter will indicate backwards if it works, unless you swap the leads).

Troubleshooting often leads to hair loss and missteps. BTDT for more years than I'd like to say, but I still have most of my hair...

(quoted from post at 13:44:21 04/10/09) Dan,
I've based everything I've written on your report of positive +10V at the Arm terminal with Arm wire disconnected and engine running.

If the voltage output from that Gen Arm is truly positive (with Arm wire disconnected) despite your re-polarization efforts, then there's something about that generator/VR that's different from what is expected or something has been missed.
Permanent magnetism in the Gen field poles could prevent a polarization reversal, but I don't know if that happens.
JimN is correct in saying that the cutout relay is probably not opening its contacts. What else but the Gen Arm would draw so much current, but stop after a batt disconnect and then re-connect?

JimN's suggestion to use a diode will work IF the Gen output is negative and Batt is also negative (diode cathode side connected to Gen Arm). But if the gen output IS positive and the Batt negative, the diode will never turn on to connect Gen to Batt as the coutout relay evidently does.

I'd bite that battery box 'bullet' and swap the battery to negative ground (temporarily?). At least, you'd know if you have a charging system that works (Ammeter will indicate backwards if it works, unless you swap the leads).

Troubleshooting often leads to hair loss and missteps. BTDT for more years than I'd like to say, but I still have most of my hair...

Click to expand...

"Permanent magnetism in the Gen field poles could prevent a polarization reversal, but I don't know if that happens. "

It doesn't, if the field coils are good. You can flip these generators back & forth from pos to neg to pos output till the chickens come to roost, without a problem. Done it, many times.